Very nice reply from Mike on this subject, thanks for
good good discussion!  I decided to return comment
because my private inbox received many personal
inquiries and expressing appreciation for discussion
about organic beekeeping philosophies many on this
list hold dear.

What has been very helpful to me is Dee's 'Whole Bee'
beekeeping techniques as I compare to what I am seeing
and learning in the wild bees, I do hold as highly
informative in my efforts to develop and learn about
strategies which promote locally adapted bees that
have a well balanced mix of fundamental traits needed
for honeybees to flourish in my local conditions and
be productive for the beekeeper.

--- Michael Palmer <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>  ..I would expect you (to find good stock) away from
those "domestic" bees..

Depends on who you 'listen to' Mike.  The 'bee
business / breeder establishment' that keep domestic
bees might say, the domestic bees escaping from
beekeepers are responsible for the wild be recovery.
While many of the 'organic bee business establishment'
that tends to rely on wild bees to obtain good
genetics might say that the wild bees are responsible
for the wild bees recovery.

I understand your hesitance as a commercial beekeeper
to use the 'F' word on this list in describing these
wild bees.  So as not to be controversial, I will also
call them 'good genetics' or 'wild bees'.

The reason I did not expect to see wild bees
recovering so strongly in the woodlands is that I
'first observed' wild bees recovering from varroa in
'prime bee habitat'. In areas that had year round
variety of nearby forage and abundant large cavities
in the form of old farm structures, wall voids and
tress etc. and I believed from my observations that
bee habitat and nourishment had much to do with the
recovery, and I thought these overall bee habitat
requirements was the 'key'.  I realize, now that I am
finding woodland bees that this was likely due to the
human population (many eyes) encountering the bees
recovering here first.

But looking at the woodland wild bees,  there IMO
seems to be a trade off occurring, giving up nearby
forage for isolation from domestic influence.  Is
getting away from poor genetics and obtaining
isolation more important than nourishment or good be
habitat?  Apparently NOT, because from what I am
seeing, the wild woodland bees seem to have developed
traits that are essential to forage more efficiently
and at a greater distance for the required
nourishment.  So, 'bad bee habitat', does not
necessarily mean 'bad for the bees' if the fundamental
traits needed are 'allowed to develop' within a
population.

Many believe (and I hear on this list all the time)
that the 'wild bees' are recovering in the USA due to
the domestic (SMR, hygienic ect.) bees escaping from
beekeepers colonies and repopulating the wild
populations.  If this is the case,,, then wouldn't you
expect to find the good genetics right there in your
own bee yards?,,, and not have to go to the isolated
wilderness?

What exactly are you getting away from in mating deep
in the isolated areas as Kirk, Dee and others that are
successful are doing?  What are you gaining by
integrating these good wild genetics into your bees as
I believe the Purvis Brothers and others are doing?

Is it as simple as 'bad breeding practices' are
depressing the development of good traits in domestic
bees?, or is 'non acclimated stock' causing this much
harm?  Or maybe even too much sloppy variation of
traits caused by an over abundance of colonies not
properly selected to the point where there is no real
focus on 'essential traits' needed for local
conditions?  Some breeders produce very good stock,
but high percentage of locally bred wild mongrels are
known to out perform them.  Would this indicate that
common everyday beekeeping practices are promoting an
unnatural balance of genetic competition?  Just
something to think about.

Best Wishes,



Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA
Small Cell Beekeeping
‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries'
http://www.biologicalbeekeeping.com
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/



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