Quote:

Very nice reply from Mike on this subject, thanks for good good discussion!

Reply:

Except that you didn't really pay attention to what he was saying. What he
said there is no real difference between feral colonies and colonies in
hives. If you want to experiment with survival of the fittest, it is the
easiest thing to do. Just let your bees die off. If *any* of them survive
without your help, breed from those colonies. You don't have to beat the
woods for survivors. Besides, the reason they survived in the woods could be
that bees do better when they are off by themselves, and not in apiaries!

As many people have pointed out, in order for a wild population to develop
some real differences, there would have to be three things: 1) complete
isolation from other bee populations (like those on an island, such as the
one Adrian Wenner studied); 2) selective pressure (such as varroa mites);
and 3) time. How much time? Well, we don't know.

The problem with so-called feral bees in this country is that they are not
isolated from other bees in any meaningful way. Otherwise, why would all
colonies in the US have mites? Mites cannot be transmitted except from bee
to bee, so that means essentially that every colony in the US is within
flying distance of other bees. If your ferals were really isolated from the
rest, they might not get mites -- so they couldn't ever develop resistance
(#2, selective pressure). In fact, it has been shown that queens can fly up
to 10 miles to mate.

This is all part of why not only is it just as good to try to select better
bees from within your stock, it makes a lot more sense. It could take
decades, if not centuries for a mite resistant bee to evolve on its own.
That is the exact reason why humans learned to breed plants and animals,
nature takes too long -- and selects for survival only, not productivity,
for example.

Darwin got the idea of evolution from observing the work of animal breeders
on the one hand and the result of geographic isolation on the other. He saw
how plastic creatures are and how much they can be changed by the breeder,
like the great variety we see in dogs. In South America he observed isolated
populations that had *differentiated themselves* as a result of long
separation. This is what created separate species like A. mellifera and A.
cerana. They came from the same ancestors, but gradually evolved into quite
different animals as a result of physical separation in different regions,
where they were exposed to different selective pressures from the different
environments.

He reasoned that nature was like an *unseen breeder*. A given population
would vary in certain ways; nature would cull out the unfit ones and the
fitter ones would reproduce and prevail. If the better individuals mated
with the poor ones, no progress would ever be made. That's why it is so hard
to make progress breeding bees unless you can control the drones as well as
the queens.

The problem with breeding, of course, is humans tend to breed for *other
things* besides health and vigor. They select for good appearance, as in
show dogs, or productivity as in milk cows and hogs. Health tends to be
relegated to veterinary science: if they get sick, will fix them with drugs.
I agree that this is wrong. It's wrong in animal husbandry and its wrong in
human health. We have to try to encourage healthy individuals that don't get
sick, instead of the current "fix it" mentality.

But even if you do obtain mite resistant stock, how will you keep it? Every
time a queen supersedes and mates with the local population, you are back
where you started. It's not a matter of requeening with good stock and then
resting on your laurels. I wonder how many beekeepers actually requeen on a
regular basis?

Isis Glass

ps. re-read Mike's posts:

Perhaps it isn't that the bees are
"ferals" but rather that you have found some good stock. The same could
have been "found" by selecting from "domestic" stock. It's just that you
didn't have to do the selection. Winter...the great equalizer...did it for
you. In my opinion. The same could be found in my stock, after selecting
for these traits...and there is nothing "feral" about my bees.

and

Are you attending his lecture? You should, and then you can ask him these
questions. His bees have been untreated for several years. He says they are
getting better at tolerating varroa. In the past, he blows the bees out in
the fall in colonies suffering from PMS. This year, he is seeing healthy
bees and brood, and hasn't had to blow many out. No ferals, no small cells.
Just years of selection starting with Russians starting in the late 90's.

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