Hello Peter,
Brian and I are on the same page basically as we both keep a fruit orchard.
Different viewpoints but Brian knows my position and if honest will say my
position is more popular with apple growers than his!

I started my apple growing  in the spring of 1977 and tried organic for a
number of years. it is hard for me to answer your question as you have no
direct knowledge of apple growing  but I will try a simple version.


< You are opposed to neonics but in favor of organophosphates, which many
believe are by far the worse of the two classes.

If you look in the archives you will see Jim Fischer and I had this
discussion and I never believed Jim understood my position but although very
knowledgeable on beekeeping growing apples is different.

In my opinion you & Jim are motivated only by the *hazard part* of the
organophosphates. Pesticides are poison.
Most growers say:
"You have got 24 hours to get your bees out of the orchard so we can spray
poison."
The neonicotinoids are poison. All pesticides are poison.

apple economics basics:
Number one apples are easy to sell and bring top dollar

number 2 ( seconds) bring half the price of number ones and move slow.

juice apples are a losing proposition but if you need to keep help busy
maybe worth doing.


To be profitable you first need pollination. Each apple if has at least 7
brown seeds was pollinated right. Pollination gives the apple the correct
shape. Poorly ( or not pollinated apples) are misshapen.
So you need good bees at the right time. Pulled after "king bloom".

Next in importance is insect control & fungicide . Some spray by the
calendar but sprays are expensive so we spray by watching insect
populations and the weather ( fungicides).

If you are still reading this is why most growers prefer the
organophosphates.

 They work and you can grab the one which fits the insect and they mix well
with most fungicides. Years of use has shown us that.

The POISON is placed ON the plant.( not IN the plant as with the
neonicotinoids).

I hope you can see where this is leading . With the neonicotinoids control
can very as *one size fits all insects*. If the dose is too low then you
could end up with several hundred acres of number 2 apples or worse juice
apples.

If you run a large orchard you only get one chance to get number one apples.

American consumers are mostly a bunch of dummies. Seconds are a better buy
and taste the same if willing to cut a bad spot out! At my market all that
sells quick are number ones.

I had a person last week ask me where all the farmers were with the fresh
produce. Most venders would politely say. "Too early for fresh produce"
I said:
The farmers are out with a pick ax trying to plant potatoes in the frozen
ground!

I had a guy ask me once if I had any *local* bananas for sale.

Bayer & Ortho make no guarantee their neonicotinoids will produce number one
apples. Myself and many of my fellow growers are not willing to risk the
whole crop on the neonicotinoids.

I am afraid what you will see are apple growers using the neonicotinoids and
then using other pesticides to do the job. In fact more sprays rather than
less.

lastly in my opinion I do not want to consume any amount of poison in my
apples. The neonicotinoids are in ALL parts of the plant. The
organophosphates are applied to the outside and if the proper time after
spraying is waited hardly detectable.

There are some ground water issues with some organophosphates but there are
with imidacloprid also.
IN FACT with every systemic pesticide as most are applied to the ground
instead of sprayed on the tree itself and dried somewhat before ending up on
the ground as with the Op.

Hopefully you will be able to comprehend what I have said. There are many
people we call crusaders.
Do not take the time to try and understand the issues. I do not bother with
those people.

Has been a long day fighting mud to get the hives out. For the long version 
of the discussion check the archives from a couple years ago.

bob

             ***********************************************
The BEE-L mailing list is powered by L-Soft's renowned
LISTSERV(R) list management software.  For more information, go to:
http://www.lsoft.com/LISTSERV-powered.html

Access BEE-L directly at:
http://community.lsoft.com/scripts/wa-LSOFTDONATIONS.exe?A0=BEE-L