> The problem is that CCD symptoms identify CCD and those same symptoms are 
> not identified with pesticides or sub-lethal doses. If anything else can 
> cause CCD, then you have to have the same symptoms.

What I have been wondering about all through these discussions, and before 
relates to criterion c i & ii below.

Symptoms of CCD (from 
http://maarec.psu.edu/pressReleases/FallDwindleUpdate0107.pdf)

--- begin quote ---

1)  In collapsed colonies
a.   The complete absence of adult bees in colonies, with no or little build 
up
of dead bees in the colonies or in front of those colonies.
b.  The presence of capped brood in colonies.
c.   The presence of food stores, both honey and bee bread
i.  which is not immediately robbed by other bees
ii.  when attacked by hive pests such as wax moth and small hive beetle, the 
attack is noticeably delayed.
2)  In cases where the colony appear to be actively collapsing
a.   An insufficient workforce to maintain the brood that is present
b.  The workforce seems to be made up of young adult bees
c.   The queen is present
d.  The cluster is reluctant to consume provided feed, such as sugar syrup 
and
protein supplement

--- end quote ---

In agreement, Wikipedia says

-- begin quote ---

A colony which has collapsed from CCD is generally characterized by all of 
these conditions occurring simultaneously:[24]

Presence of capped brood in abandoned colonies. Bees normally will not 
abandon a hive until the capped brood have all hatched.
Presence of food stores, both honey and bee pollen:
i. which are not immediately robbed by other bees
ii. which when attacked by hive pests such as wax moth and small hive 
beetle, the attack is noticeably delayed.
Presence of the queen bee. If the queen is not present, the hive died 
because it was queenless, which is not considered CCD.
Precursor symptoms that may arise before the final colony collapse are:

Insufficient workforce to maintain the brood that is present
Workforce seems to be made up of young adult bees
The colony members are reluctant to consume provided feed, such as sugar 
syrup and protein supplement.

--- end quote ---

Note: In both definitions, the delayed robbing or delayed occupation by 
opportunistic insects is a necessary criterion for diagnosis.

This is what the lawyers would call a "tough" criterion since the words are 
vague and not clearly defined.

Moreover, I wonder if this criterion has been observed and measured in 
Jerry's study and in Randy's test to see if he could generate a breakdown 
which simulates CCD.

To me this has been the sticking point all along and is seldom addressed. 
You (Bill) suggested a cause for that observation many posts ago, but AFAIK, 
nobody has taken that idea anywhere.

> ... we are back to sub-lethal doses and the like.

Pesticide poisoning in its various degrees is a separate topic and an 
important one, but one which people insist in confusing with collapse.

They are not the same.  In some cases there could be a relationship, however 
it cannot be proven and any speculation is just that.  In cases of collapse 
and investigations which are documented, pesticides have generally, but not 
always been dismissed or discounted. 

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