> This old comb represses the vigour of colonies, so in order to keep up the
> cropping ability, they select strains of bee that produce very large
> numbers of bees, instead of replacing the old comb.

I was going to let this pass, but I'd hate to let any innocent newbies
reading that this thing this is so cut and dried.  If this were not a
genteel list, and if I did not have so much respect for Dave, I'd say
"Bullshit", but it is, and I do, so I won't.

> The need for high numbers of bees leads to a requirement to have a larger
> winter population than the bees would choose for themselves and this in
> turn leads to unstable wintering and huge consumption of winter stores.

It is hard to argue with this, other than to say that I have used new comb
and very old comb in large numbers of colonies, with many differing strains
of bee, under many varied conditions and can say that, in my roughly 50,00
hive-years of experience, I have observed that old comb (comb in perfect
shape, not deformed old garbage) is definitely better for my purposes than
no comb (only foundation), and much better for wintering in my area, than
new comb.  Beyond that, I have not seen anything to indicate to me that
really dark combs are better or worse than newer combs, but, given a choice,
for most purposes, I'd choose combs a year or two old that have been used
for brood at least once.  They have a longer life ahead, are lighter, and
usually have better frames.

> The winter stores have to be fed to the bees, which is time consuming and
> costly.

There are two main reasons for fall feeding: 1.) The honey was taken away
and 2.) Insurance.

In many areas, it is hard to know when the last flow is over.  Often all the
honey is pulled in anticipation of another flow, and, Ooooops! there is a
frost.  End of the show.  Feeding time!  Also, in many areas, the honey is
not ideal for wintering and removing it does the bees a favour, assuming it
is replaced promptly with good syrup.

In any large operation, there is a range of bees.  Some do well,, some
don't.  Feeding all ensures that the light ones survive.  Moreover, feed is
usually much cheaper than honey, and the exchange of feed for honey,
therefore benefits the beekeeper's relationship with his bank.

> It is not the number of bees in a colony that gains the maximum crop, but
> the number of bee foraging journeys. A tough bee that can work longer
> hours per day and still live for more working days than an Italian bee can
> gather a crop just as large, but with many fewer bees in the box.

We agree on that, but I am not sure what that means for most of us.

We also agree that using a bee that is suited to the area and the management
system.  What is lost on most hobbyists and non-US beekeepers is the vast
array of choices available to the knowledgeable beekeeper.  It may be
confusing to the tyro, but the commercial guys know where to buy bees that
suit them.  Just ask Bob.

As for buying from distant suppliers, the best bee I have found for my area
and management comes from Gus in Hawaii.  Many of my Alberta fellows have
independently have arrived at the same conclusion, and it is tough to get
them when we want them.  FWIW, the Hawaiian carnies are quite conservative
in winter, yet productive and disease-resistant.  The other bees I like
(sorry Dave) is the typical Australian Italian -- warts and all.

I think I wrote here a few years back about the bees that I had that had
been adapted to the region.  they were perfect welfare bees.  They met the
description of the bees Dave wants, but they almost broke me.  They did all
the bee stuff just fine -- they wintered economically and well, resisted
disease, etc. etc. -- but they made very little surplus.

And for those wondering, yes, I have done lots of tests with new comb and
old comb and can find virtues in both.  I should mention, though,  that I
have not, and never will, use coumaphos, and only very sparing amounts of
Apistan.  I think this is an important thing to state, since, for those who
have used those toxins, or are buying comb of unknown origin, old comb is a
very different question.

allen

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