> I am trying to say that non-farmers need to see from the farmer's viewpoint and you respond with this? We should just give up trying to communicate altogether? Consumers should have nothing to say about how food is produced?

> In all this back and forth,  I have seen dozens of statements and proclamations,  don't recall any questions.

I just posed three.




And I replied.  Your questions are not about farming,  not about being informed.  Those three questions are based on how you communicate your point of view.  None of them further your knowledge on AG issue,  but are simple directed at telling others your position.  None of them further or favor 2 way communication.

I reinterate, 
 Team work involves understanding your point and how its perceived as well as the others,  
it involves being willing to change or modify your position, 
it involves trusting the others on the team to do their part.


So far,  the debate has been one sided  "farmers use to much pesticides and are ruining the earth"   Even Christina's latest post,  she is of the opinion that GMO for roundup was bad,  even though there are some huge benefits  and I have not seen one real downside!  Some will claim its harmed the Monarchs,  but that’s a pretty big stretch. (you could blame Lorsban for that one)




In response to your other post,




* Show me where I said they were. IPM was developed in response to excess use of pesticide in the past. 

Pete,  with all due respect that’s  a completely wrong and misguided comment.  


 You wrote: "I don't think many informed people would agree with this. Ideally, one would prefer no pesticides and no pests. The idea with IPM is to use only as much as needed to control pests, not blanket the crops without even evaluating. I think growers would rather use less but more effective product"



You Said  "many informed people"   What is completely clear to me is the number of informed people is so tiny as to be non existent.   We seem to have more information on African farm issues than US farm issues!  We seem to know a lot about why Africa is starving,  but very little about why we are not.

  


Your concept of IPM, has been around long before the "excessive use" came into play.  What happened then was someone coined the term in order to discuss it.  IPM stratigies have been in play since pesticides were invented.    

You seem to have this odd view of some public health dept passing out pesticides for free?  The simple cost of them alone means everyone who uses them at a level that would concern someone, is already weighing the cost and tried alternatives. Any AG involved person is plunking down a  Relatively large portion of their expendable capitol to control pest.  To assume they have not weighed and planed the options is both nonsense, rude, and wrong.  

I did a bit of digging this AM, as an average the pesticide cost alone is around 20% of the input cost.  For a farmer,  that could be a 20% bump in income if not used,  you really think on average any person would plop down 20% of their income without weighing the options?


The system is already stacked in favor of the "IDEAL' you mentioned!  Unregulated supply,  hardly any barriers into the market,  and a abundant supply alone simply demands that every input be evaluated for cost and impact at a level you simply cannot understand! Farmers with literally millons invested, for a return of 150K a year  if the weather holds!




I had hoped this point would get across,  but it seems that I am completely correct on one point,   Talking points such as "we still use to many pesticides"  have taken root at a level that is about impossible to debunk.

Mark Twain was right,  its easier to fool people than to convince them they have been fooled.  

I much appreciate the discussion,  making me realize a lot of things that I need to address differently.  And no one,  Pete included should think I don’t sincerely appreciate the debate, or that my goal is other than respectable debate.



I ran into a good friend this AM and stopped to talk a bit,  hes telling me about the newest trend in farming,  biological amendments.  The depth of knowledge in their craft these days would impress anyone who actually took time to learn about it. Listen careful as the average farmer can explain the nuances of carbon points, nitrogen uptake and how it relates to their soil and current weather conditions,  and in a few moments you realize,  these guys are on top of the game.



I have to admit,  I am a bit frustrated.  My early engineering career was in automotive.  It’s a tough field,  narrow minds and little innovation.  I managed to switch to AG Engineering,  and wow,  the open minds,  thirst for knowledge and desire to do things better every day was an eye opener.  At all levels.  From farmer to Corp management.  In that, one gets spoiled by the willingness for people to listen and discuss.  Coming back in to the general population, where everyone already has an opinion and is unwilling to change has been a difficult transition.  Trying to figure out how to reach people can be a real struggle at times.

Charles

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