Barry Birkey <[log in to unmask]> said:

> What I have done, though, is read through *all* the articles that
> are posted on Mr. Wenner's web pages
> (http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm)

I read them too.

> and most of the book, ANATOMY OF A CONTROVERSY, by Wenner and Wells,

I have not read that book just yet.

> I find overwhelming evidence that should cause everyone to stop and
> question the von Frisch theory as most have all too willingly embraced
> it over the years as fact.

For there to be a "controversy", there must be more than one scientist
to disagree.  The only person who seems to be promoting "odor" over
dance is Dr. Wenner.  No one else seems to even rebut him any more.
One man does not a "controversy" make.

> While I have not personally done testing of the "compass direction"
> that the dance is supposedly showing,

You really should.  It is just as easy as I said.  There are even websites
that explain it.  As a matter of fact, we are trying to develop some simple
graphics to allow even very young children who can't read well to do exactly
the same thing for an observation hive we have installed at a nearby state park.
(A few cheap compasses, a few golfer's "range finders", and the kids have an
adventure for an hour or so.  Some parents buy some honey at the park gift
shop, so we are classifying the whole thing as "advertising expenses".)

> From the way you talk, I assume you *have* done such verifying?

Yes, clearly a sign of a quite lifestyle.  Perhaps too quiet.  :)

> Not sure I understand this. It would be one thing if the "Robo-Bee" could
> recruit bees (and it should be able to recruit the majority of a sample
> group) with *just* a dance but you mention a sample of nectar is used too.

A sample of "nectar" (which could be nothing more than sugar water) is a
required item to recruit foragers.  The basic concept is "here, try it - its good stuff".
The higher the sugar concentration, the more foragers one can recruit.  All this
is covered in great detail in the book "The Wisdom of The Hive, by Seeley, as well
as countless papers by a wide range of researchers.  (BLATANT PLUG - The
IBRA will be happy to make a list of all the papers that match any search criteria
for a mere $25.  I am a happy IBRA customer.)

> It's interesting that you suggest Dr. Wenner takes such an
> extreme viewpoint on this issue of dance,

I made no value judgements as to "extreme".  I simply pointed out that in the
specific article at hand, the mere description of the test data made it clear that
the data showed nothing more than "the round dance does not include distance
and direction vectors", which is an well-known fact.  The paper never mentioned
the difference between "round" and "waggle" dances, so I thought I'd point out the
(perhaps NOT SO) obvious to prevent anyone from jumping to unwarranted conclusions.

Since the article (http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/abjoct1992.htm) offered
a "random search/odor plume" explanation for ALL bee foraging, and went on to say:

        "These interpretations lend credence to the authors' suggestion
            that honey bees are likely to utilize odors more in finding flower
            patches than they do the dance language (which may only
            serve as a stimulus to go out and search)."

I find the conclusion completely misleading. The conclusion is made from
"testing" the round dance, which is KNOWN to have no distance/direction
component.  While ABJ is certainly not a juried journal, I am surprised that
Nick Dadant and his staff did not ask such questions themselves.
"20 seconds flight time" is a little hard to miss, and the implications are
obvious to even the casual observer.

> Yet you hold and defend a viewpoint that is even more extreme and narrow
> (odor has no bearing on bee recruitment through dance),

I simply described (as best I could) the results of the Robo-Bee experiments, which
are a part of  the current "generally accepted viewpoint".  What I said was that odor
was not one of the MINIMUM requirements to recruitment and accurate deployment
of recruits to the area promoted by the dancer.  (No, I don't have my own Robo-Bee,
nor do I plan to build one...)

Of course, I also hold strong and narrow positions on things like the
spherical nature of Earth.  Dismiss me as "an extremist" if you will.   :)

> in spite of the volume of research by Wenner, Wells and others that
> raise a big red flag.

How many researchers and/or beekeepers would agree that any "big red flag"
is anywhere in sight?  Show of hands, ladies and gentlemen?  People with
observation hives get TWO votes.  People with entomology degrees get
THREE votes, but only if they kept an observation hive alive through winter.

==============================================

Bill Truesdell added:

> It seems bees do not have a position on any of this, or, if they do,
> they have not posted it on the internet.

I once came upon a bee flinging herself at the keyboard of my laptop
which I had left in the honey house overnight.  All she had typed was:

        all your honey are belong to us

...but I got the message.
I left more for them to winter over on that fall.

        jim

        Farmageddon