Hi Allen and Randy,

I can't say I disagree with what either of you say here...but I want to make sure we are on the same planet.

What Allen and Randy describe (i think) is "disease"...specifically, microbial disease (to be complete, Allen also hints at pesticide and/or pollution poisoning).

AFB, EHB, nosema a and c, chalkbrood, stonebrood, sacbrood, DWV, paralysis viruses, BQCV...add to this the new virus described by Jerry B, and you have _most_ of the disease causing mirco-organisms known to be found in beehives.  Most (if not all) of these causative organisms can be found in most colonies, yet under most circumstances the bees (and the other organisms in the hive) are not wiped out.  Many of these organisms are competitive towards one another...but in "healthy" circumstances, none of them alone (or as a group of "disease causing organisms") are dominant.

Remember, there are tens of thousands of species of microbes that live in the hive and in bees...these disease causing organisms are a very small subset of the total.

Randy, we have discussed before that many of these specific organisms are antagonistic towards one another....and the specific case where the causative organism for stonebrood is cultured in order to produce fumidil (the substance is a toxin produced by a fungus), which is used to fight nosema.

Are any of these disease causing organisms known to be beneficial?  I agree that the interactions are complex (to say the least!), and i also agree that in some cases we know of organisms that are alternitavely beneficial and pathogenic, depending on context....but do we know of any of these honeybee disease causing organisms being beneficial?  I can only think of some talk of DWV causing defensive behavior in guard bees (which might be beneficial for the bees in some circumstances)...but nothing major.  I ask this in relation to your comment: 

>...One of my recent articles in ABJ detailed just how
>complex the interactions are.  Of note is that it is often a very fine line
>between being a beneficial, a commensal, or a pathogen.

Allen wrote:
> And it also is no jump at all to state that they can also inactivate,
> overload or otherwise distract the "immune system". if such a thing exists
>  Bacteria, fungi, viruses, fragments, chemicals... all these things
> interact.

Again, this seems to me like a description of classic "disease".  I can imagine some other microbe "getting out of hand" in a complex culture and causing some kind of observable/measurable symptoms...but i've not heard much about this kind of infection being reported in bees...is there something I'm missing?  I kind of think that if this were a common occurance (microbial disease outside of the common ones) someone would have reported it (as Jerry did with the new virus).

I've heard lots of observations and suggestions from researchers of what appears to be under active immune systems...I haven't heard any hint of "overactive immune systems" in bees.

The Evans study I posted showed a 21 times increase in some antibacterial RNA when larvae were exposed to nonpathogenic bacteria in their feed.  The author postulates a mechanism where the RNA is is present mostly in the hemolymph to fight any infection that breaches the gut, while having less effect in the gut where the bacteria are tolerated.  This suggests a system in which the more bacteria present, the more energy spent on bacterial defense (a pretty good scheme).

I understand the logic and the theory that non-pathogenic bacteria present could negatively affect the immune system....I'm just not aware of any data (or observations) that suggest this is happening.

deknow

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