>>There seems to be more and more data to support the damages of low level toxicity on the developing brood. This is suspected to be one of the causes of the weakened immune systems and increased virus loads in the adult bees.

It is looking more and more like this will be the big "surprise" for neonic boosters.  When we introduce xenochemicals, we never really know in advance what the eventual and remote unexpected consequences might prove to be.  That is even more true outside the lab in the wild where many unanticipated chemicals and conditions may produce novel combinations and amplification either by direct chemical action or catalytic effects.

>It doesn't take too much of a jump to consider that the presence of various bacteria in the hive provide a "helpful stress"....activating the immune system, and protecting the bee (brood, colony, etc.).

And it also is no jump at all to state that they can also inactivate, overload or otherwise distract the "immune system". if such a thing exists  Bacteria, fungi, viruses, fragments, chemicals... all these things interact.

> I know Allen hates my analogies, but it reminds of when I used to have tropical (freshwater) fish as a kid.  You add some aquarium salt to the water, it irritates the skin of the fish, and they produce protective slime....which helps prevent infection.  Is a weakened immune system merely one caught unchallenged and offguard?  Do fumidil, TM, Tylan, organic acids, essential oils, affect the bacteria populations?  This study certainly doesn't come to these conclusions, but in current context, it does beg these questions. http://ddr.nal.usda.gov/bitstream/10113/9361/1/IND43634205.pdf

These are good questions, but asking them does not validate the obvious, but hypothetical, answers. 

They remain questions and only questions.

For the record, I have nothing against analogies, parables, similes, or metaphors although I consider them to be lazy writing and dangerous in the irresponsible hands  -- like preachers and politicians and some writers.  

These rhetorical devices can be employed to short-circuit the reasoning process and achieve, in extreme cases, acceptance of ridiculous or dangerous notions and lead people to do things that they would otherwise never do.  

A philosophy prof friend of mine once explained to me that just because something can be said or thought does not make it true.  

A lot of people have problems distinguishing symbolic thought from what we call reality and when led out over their depth are unaware of that fact.  Some people make a living doing that, convincing others.  FWIW, hypnotising a subject is basically just the process of convincing someone to suspend judgement, but I think you already know that.

>The other study is from Martha Gilliam wayyyy back in 1974.  In this (and some of her related studies that are discussed and listed in the bibliography), Martha found that yeasts were rare in the guts of bees...  Are there consequences other than what can be seen with a microscope?  http://www.tucson.ars.ag.gov/unit/Publications/PDFfiles/686.pdf

These are all quite the subjects of conjecture.  It seems all things are interrelated.  We seem to be short of proof, though, exactly how.  Maybe it is simply too complex and we have to fall back on faith?

I liked David's post very much, too, and thought his points have merit, but had not gotten around to addressing it, so thanks for bumping it.

We all wonder about these things.  I posted my experience with increased varroa after dosing with medications for AFB and speculating that maybe I meddled with something that was holding varroa back, so don't think I am basically in disagreement.  (In that case it could well have been coincidence, though.  Nothing was proven).  

I am just not as ready to believe that the complex balance in every beehive in every management system, in every application, in every locale, is in perfect and Heavenly Equilibrium -- or can be.  

It does seem, though, that in some locales, under some management, that hives do achieve a balance that is not improved by beekeeper interventions.  Those lucky beekeepers who find that they are that lucky sometimes make themselves into prophets and lead others out into what proves to be a wilderness.  Many  of the 'saved' never reach the Promised Land.

I always remember the kids back in school who were inveterate liars.  When they were young, their lies were transparent, but many have them have grown up, bought suits (sometimes bee suits), and gotten much better at lying and being believed with time.  

A beekeeper once said to me about other beekeepers when comparing crops: "First liar never had a chance".  There are some things everyone lies about and some things few people lie about, then there is beekeeping.

There are things we know, things we don't know -- and things we don't know we don't know.

When we are speculating we have to remember we are speculating and be careful to not fool ourselves with our own rhetoric and remember that there is such a thing as luck.

So far, in spite ofmany  studies which show that microrganisms closely associated with "higher lifeforms" can be beneficial, I am less than convinced that they are essential, as some claim.

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