Bob, I am greatly relieved to hear that you are recovering, and wish you a
speedy recovery!

>My point is why is Bayer doing documented testing with  pesticide
> spiroteramat  on crops during full bloom?


For one, because that is the most efficient time to treat for the psyllid,
similar to beekeepers having optimum times to treat for varroa.  Without
effective treatment for the psyllid, citrus growers may lose their
orchards.  The least of the growers' worries in this case is the beekeeper.

Second, because at an early meeting with beekeepers (at which I was present)
Bayer wanted to demonstrate the safety of the product--essentially to put it
to the "acid test" with the full cooperation of the most skeptical
beekeepers.  IMHO, they have done so, in a trial with the cooperation of
those beekeepers, by an independent, trusted researcher, and in a
transparent manner.

Please note Bob, how carefully I qualified my "endorsement" of the
trial--the safety was demonstrated in citrus, by foliar application during
bloom, in Florida, in March.  IMHO, any other potential registered use
should be tested in a similar manner.  In fact, I propose that the
methodology of this particular trial be a model for future pesticide trials,
since it was on "real life" colonies in a "real life" (as opposed to
laboratory) situation.



> >Surely Bayer realizes beekeepers feel using a pesticide which will kill
> sucking insects will cause harm to
> bees? Sub lethal problems? Concoction worries?
>

Of course I would be concerned about concoction worries, especially with
fungicides.  I'll see if I can find out the fungicide history of the test
orchards.

>
> >Bayer is trying to get a foot in the door to start promoting products to
> be used on bloom. Citrus *is* the best place to attempt a entrance as being
> a former Florida beekeeper I know that beekeepers and citrus growers are not
> the best of friends.
>

I seriously doubt that most citrus growers invest in the business in order
to gain newfound friends who happen to be beekeepers ; )

>
> >Is registration of spirotetramat for *all* crops which have sucking insect
> issues their next move?  My friends and I think so!
>

I have no idea what the Bayer business strategy is, but the words "Well,
duh!" come to mind.  If you had invented, and invested in such a product,
Bob, what would you do if you were their shoes, what would you tell the
stockholders who own the company?

>
> >In chess you ignore a couple of seeming  mean less moves and then its too
> late to recover.


As a relatively impartial observer, Bob, I must say that Bayer has made a
helluva strong opening move!  : )


> > A pesticide strong enough to kill sucking insects is strong enough to
> cause issues with pollinators.


The data in this case, Bob, do not appear to support that statement.

> It seems we are fighting a losing battle to keep our flowers free of
neonicotinoid poison

Bob, it appears that we may have won one in this case, if we can petition to
have Movento registered, or would you prefer to return to Temik, DDT, or
other truly nasties?

> as the chemical companies are always pushing for registration of new
products

In actuality, Bayer is not going to support registration of IMD on almonds.
It appears that they are going to remove that use from their labels.

> with minimal research as far as sub lethal ... effect on bees.

That is sure a slap in the face to Dr Dick Rogers and associates!  Dave
Hackenberg told me that it took them 2-1/2 days of hard work to collect the
data at each inspection, over eight months.  Bayer has asked beekeepers to
define the bar to scale to have the beekeepers support for the registration
of a product.  It appears to me that Bayer cleared that bar in the Movento
trial, yet now I hear some beekeepers yelling (literally) that they want to
make that bar a moving target.

>and in combination with other chemicals

This is an issue that has recently come to the fore.  However, it is an EPA
issue, not a pesticide company issue.  In my presentation at the Orlando
convention, I also raised other pesticide testing issues that either are not
addressed by current testing, or that had not even occurred to researchers
or regulators (I checked).

Bob, my point is that beekeepers have been given a golden opportunity to
work with a major player in the pesticide industry.  The other players are
watching closely.  If beekeepers wish to be taken seriously, I suggest that
we act like adults and play the game like adults.

Randy Oliver
Killing time in the Orlando airport

             ***********************************************
The BEE-L mailing list is powered by L-Soft's renowned
LISTSERV(R) list management software.  For more information, go to:
http://www.lsoft.com/LISTSERV-powered.html

Access BEE-L directly at:
http://community.lsoft.com/scripts/wa-LSOFTDONATIONS.exe?A0=BEE-L