In message 
<[log in to unmask]>, PO 
Gustafsson <[log in to unmask]> writes
>Interesting to hear how big difference there is between us. I get an
>average of 2,5 queens out of the mating nucs. If I really push it and
>take queens out as soon as they start laying eggs I can get 3 rounds.

Hi P-O,

I am UK too as you know and your experience is parallel to mines. 3 
rounds of mated queens if i am lucky, and with the duds that never take, 
or turn out the odd drone layer, more like an average of 2 to 2.5. Yes 
it could be pushed higher by using the full bee season into Sept. to 
mate more and more queens, but after about 7th July the queens are of 
little use to us as you cannot practically get safe introduction on the 
heather (bees hostile and unreceptive in that environment).

We fill the mini nucs on an opportunist basis from late April ( but more 
normally first 10 days of May) as soon as the first grafts are ready, 
and first time around a 70% success rate would be good, a lot need 
refilling that early. One which takes first time will possibly turn out 
4 queens by early July, but average numbers has to include the failures, 
so yes, your figure is accurate. Average is an interesting and moving 
concept. True average is over ALL your units, not just the successful 
ones, including all the dinks. Anything else is skewing the figures, and 
deceiving others, and perhaps also yourself .

>This has led to where I am now, with an extra
>5 kg winter feed I get 30 kg more honey. Bees start early brooding and
>are ready when the first flowers are coming. Would I go back to the more
>or less inbred bees? Don't think so. Can't afford it.

Of course this is correct. No way can you carry on as now following the 
stuff that comes out of the extremists. Their lack of stores is more 
often not the fault of the bees anyway. We keep them for the honey, to 
pay the mortgage, so we take it to sell, and give them back clean and 
perfect stores for wintering. All this twaddle about no trace nutrients 
leading to unhealthy bees just is not borne out in practice at all, and 
they seem to create an environment in their mind that somehow the bees 
will have ONLY the artificial stores, but of course this is rubbish as 
the bees will forage at every opportunity and will bring in pollen in 
particular at amazing times.
>
>Regarding honey for winter stores: it would be hazard here with bees
>confined to the hive for 6 months without any chance for a cleansing
>flight during that time. Worst possible scenario for me is when there is
>a late honey dew flow after I taken the last honey home. I had it one
>year, fortunately only on a few locations. Half of the hives died, the
>rest was so poor they didn't build up until summer was gone.

P-o, we are not so very different. I have mainly black bees, well 
adapted to the environment, but having had thousands and thousands of 
colony years experience of doing it both ways there is ZERO doubt in my 
mind that clean stores (syrup, we use mainly Api-Invert, you will know 
it, but for those who dont, specially developed for bees in Germany) is 
much better winter food than honey. The bees are healthier altogether. 
We even remove a lot of stores from the broodnest, leaving maybe 4 or 5 
bars especially those with a lot of pollen, and give them approx 14Kg of 
syrup. This is enough for winter here, and does not cause overcrowding 
that prevents that last important brood cycle in September, which 
without feeding does not happen. Of course we do not have anything like 
as long a period without flight as you but can rarely,  in a bad winter, 
get three months. Wintering with much heather honey you start getting 
really twitchy after 4 to 6 weeks without flight, and when they do get 
out, boy were they desperate. Not so with the cleaner stores.
> And
>what a mess to clean up those dead hives were.

Not seen that now for many many years, but it is really sad and a huge 
amount of work. Used to be quite common under the old ways, the ones in 
the old books. Met one of the authors when I was young, he was one of 
the people who knew exactly what to do, and that there were set ways to 
do it. Turned out his annual loss rate and per colony production figures 
were worse than my fathers at the time, but my dad was still 'wrong' for 
not following the method. ( they operated in the same territory)

>Always interesting to
>compare, but I don't think we can say anyone is right or wrong here...

Quite so, but have to say I am a bit guilty about not coming in to 
support you and others who are beset by the tiny group who continue 
flooding the list.

They are astonishingly productive at least in terms of posting numbers, 
and if this is repeated on all the lists they are on I don't know how 
they have the time to get on with the main game, keeping bees and 
producing honey. They also seem to have endless time to look up obscure 
and often long obsolete and superceded writings, and little known 
research documents, some of which astonish me where they could find it. 
These writings and documents have one thing in common though, they are 
carefully selected, and sometimes it seems wilfully misinterpreted, to 
support their view, even if long superceded by other views.

I remember Allen Dick asked a question similar to the one you did about 
colony numbers and productivity and so far as I am aware never got a 
direct answer from some. Seems to be a place not to go, as their 
measures of success are alien to those of us providing a product to the 
masses at an affordable price (which, if adopted worldwide as they would 
wish, their method would largely deny the public), and they do seem very 
touchy about it. ( My conclusion, based on no evidence at all except 
their own reticence, is that, Dee Lusby apart, they do not add up to a 
lot.)

I know you said you were near to unsubscribing. I did. I was heartily 
sick of their list flooding and had had enough. I am not proud of that, 
I should, like you, have hung in there, but also like you, I am a sharp 
end commercial beekeeper and need to get on with things at the important 
times and not get involved in mud wrestling. Now the honey is all home, 
the bees are all off the mountains and fed, looking exceptionally 
healthy and sleek, and winter quiet descends, so I can now participate 
again.

Murray

( Who is quite proud to have had myself and  my ways of working called 
'an obscene aberration' by one of the 'natural' group!)

-- 
Murray McGregor

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