> Always question results
until the questions raised are proven to be true or untrue.

Mike, there are no proofs in science--only in mathematics.  Nothing in
science can be "proven" to be true.  The best that we can arrive at is a
theory, which is a widely accepted hypothesis, backed by supporting research
observations.

>none of the hives had

> rapid depopulation of the adult bees with huge amounts of brood left.
>

Then they didn't suffer from CCD!

>
> >Many displayed "dwindling" but "dwindling " can be explained in many ways.
>

Sure can, but by careful observation, many potential explanations can be
eliminated.  For example, in my trial, we could eliminate pesticides,
miticides, movement of colonies, and varroa (mite levels were extremely
low).



> >Many claimed CCD when a queen and a small amount of bees were found. I
> have
> seen this condition myself over the last fifty years and see nothing earth
> shaking about seeing such.


It is when several thousand of your colonies ready for almonds dwindle
unexpectedly to such a condition!


> >I have seen the "dwindling" Jerry describes but I have not
> seen large amounts nor seen the problem spread through yards of bees


Bob, you should then count yourself lucky!


> > I have seen nosema ceranae spread through yards of bees and watched spore
> counts
> rise (CCD?).


And then what happened?


> >I have seen "virus issues" but ALWAYS when varroa is present and NEVER
> before varroa arrived. PMS (virus issues) came into being when varroa
> arrived.


Historically, there were virus epidemics occasionally prior to varroa.
Sacbrood and chronic paralysis virus to name two.

>In fact virus research was such a low priority when the 92 edition of the
Hive and

> the Honey Bee was done only THREE pages ( 1109, 1110,1111) were devoted to
> the most famous virus researchers work.
>

Yes, I have checked back issues of HHB--it is amazing how viruses came to
the fore after varroa.

>Control of varroa is not what it used to be today and *in my opinion*
explains a lot

> about why we are seeing the rise in virus issues.


Bob, for once we are in total agreement!

>
> >In "classic" CCD, there is the sudden loss of
>
>> the adult workforce over the course of a day or two, leaving behind frames
>> of fairly healthy-appearing brood.
>>
> >Can be explained by any cause which kills or disorients the bees while
> away
> from the hive.
>

Such as?  CCD collapses typically did not take place at the time of year
when pesticides were being applied, so unlikely to decimate a field force.
Also, what would cause the sudden disorientation?  If it were previous
exposure to pesticides, would have exhibited the effect earlier.

>
> >To a lesser degree can be expl;ained by sick bees flying out to die ( a
> hypothesis I do not buy into personally)


Actually, this could explain it to a much greater degree.  I will be writing
about it in a following article.



> >The spring of "98"was my worst year in beekeeping with the most hive loss.
> Varroa were in the
> drivers seat. Then came checkmite and I have NEVER seen a chemical which
> dropped varroa like coumaphos.


Ditto here.  Coumaphos scared me after using in 98 or 99 (can't remember).
I gave up all synthetic miticides in 2000, and haven't touched one since.
My bees look great this year!  Have been doing mite tests this week.
Totally agree with you that sick bees correlate highly with mite levels.

>I actually know the result as testing of bees in Australia shows high virus

> loads but no bee problems.


Bob, I have been to Australia the past three years, and have asked many
commercial beekeepers there about any problems.  They do have bee problems.
Poor nutrition is a major one.  Nosema another.  But also some occasional
unexplained dwindling and collapses.   Just saying that there are still bee
health problems even in the absence of varroa.

>
> >Good discussion!
>

Agreed!  Thanks.

Randy Oliver

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