On Wed, Dec 22, 2010 at 5:03 PM, randy oliver <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>
> >First the beekeeper concern was about imidicloprid.  You yourself recently
> stated that your bees were doing fine next to thiamethoxam.
>

Yes, I make a distinction.  Both are neonicotinoids, but that is a class of
systemic insecticides.  It would be like classing all the different
organophosphate insecticides  together.

>
> >So Stan, which product would you suggest that I test?  I only want to go
> through the hard work of running a large field trial if beekeepers are
> going
> to accept the results.  I will send the protocol around in advance to make
> sure that everyone will buy in.  I solicit your help.
>

I suggest you test the product that you wish to have some experimental data
on.  If one could run a test on one of the neonicotinoids and have the
results apply to all neonicotinoids,  then the pesticides companies and the
regulatory agencies and all of us would have greatly simplified lives.  But
that is not the situation.  For proprietary reasons the chemicals are all
different and purposely engineered with such things as "longevity" (since
they are systemics).  And because they are different, they breakdown
(metabolize) differently.  And therefore I would like to know whether
thiamethoxam actually "breaks down into clothianidin" or whether one of its
breakdown product is a nitroguanidine in the same class of chemicals as
clothianidin.  In which case the next obvious question would be, how much
similarity is there between the two?  Because it is quite clear that there
are big differences between the parent chemicals.  I would just like to know
why you think that thiamethoxam degrades into clothianidin (because the soil
longevity differences don't seem to indicate this).

So, my specific suggestions for your research proposal would be:
1.  Limit your question to one actually possible to answer.

2.  If clothianidin is the insecticide you run a test with, do some thinking
about how you deal with something that has a half life on Fugay soil type of
approximately 19 years.  Other chemicals with environmental persistence did
not show their problematic effects immediately   Thinking here of how long
bird eggshells stayed thin even after DDT was not used anymore.   I am not
sure of the history, but I believe that the problem was not noticed until
after several years of use.

3.  When trying to run a test with persistent chemicals (for several years),
it would be prudent to assume that very attractive bee plants could follow
the treated crop.  An engineer like my son would want to have a "safety
factor".  So, look at all the various crops that clothianidin is listed
for.  Pick the one that has the highest rate of ingredient per hectare.
Assume that if the clothianidin is used on a crop, like potatoes, where the
plant residue after the potatoes are harvested remains in the soil, and if
some of this is not metabolized, and if the soil half life  is very long,
then a great deal of the product is still going to be available to the
following crop.  So then you would have to treat the soil with some large
percentage of the highest rate and then grow sweet clover, buckwheat,
alsike... because different crops move the systemic into their nectar and
pollen (not to mention guttation water) differentially.

4.  If you do a test with a field of treated crop that is attractive, say
canola,  then to protect yourself against the particular criticism leveled
at the Scott-Dupree et al, study, make sure the fields are huge so you can
guarantee that the bees forage on the particular crop or control.  Perhaps
you have that in California.  We certainly don't in Eastern Canada.   But
could be done in the Prairie provinces.

I could go on, but unless you have a more specific research proposal, its a
bit pointless.  I am not trying to put the bar so high that the research
isn't done, but I am pointing out the difficulties with studying these
effects *thoroughly*.    But you are dealing with persistent products.  The
foresters claim "multiyear" control of pests with some of  them, so then
studies have to look at multiyear effects on bees.

Stan

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