In article <[log in to unmask]>, Stefan Stangaciu
<[log in to unmask]> writes
>        I agree that everything depends on the dose. But you
>will never convince me, nor any other MD or ND that the
>toxicity of the above substances are less or equal with that
>of the essential oils.
 
I did not say that they were less toxic than essential oils. That would
be plainly untrue. I said that they are amonst the most benign
treatments available. I was, of course, comparing them with other
chemical treatments. Coumaphos, Amitraz, and a host of others, including
Formic Acid are the comparison treatments. It does as you say depend on
the dosage, and in the correct controlled dosages it is administered in
only sufficient measure to harm varroa mites, not bees. The amount of
any essential oil used in treating varroa is vastly higher than the
amount of fluvalinate or flumethrin.
 
>        Can you tell us what is the LD50 for the pyrethroids
>mentioned above?
>        I'll try to get for you the same LD50 but for some
>of the essential oils and we'll compare the results, OK?
 
You find the figures. I'm a beekeeper, not a scientist so I'll take your
word for what you find, but I cannot see why it is all that important
given that accurate dosage, devised by scientists, has already been
calculated and demonstrated effective for these substances.
>
>>>    * NEVER, a MD, ND etc. will accept with open and light
>"heart" the
>>>presence of these poisons in a traditional "pure",
>"natural" product;
 
In other postings you have accused others of emotion in what they say.
What kind of statement is the above if not emotional. Your use of words
distorts the issues away from the strictly rational arguments.
>
>      The contamination of propolis and other bee products
>is, in part, the fault of beekeepers which use also chemical
>methods which you advocate with such a passion...
 
It may be of interest that I do NOT advocate anything, and certainly not
with a passion. I have the very good fortune to still be in one of the
few varroa free (apparently) areas and use nothing. This will not
continue to be the case. Before long we will be infested. Then I WILL
have a passion. Keeping my bees alive, which means that any of my
neighbours using unproven, unreliable or even crank, remedies will
certainly not be popular with any of the rest of us around here.
 
>        Most of the actual good companies have found ways to
>take out the lead from propolis, but do you know any which
>is able to get out of wax, honey etc. your pyrethroids?
 
Eat propolis if you like. I wouldn't, although I know many who do. I've
tried it and to me it is foul tasting muck which has never given me
anything except diarrhoea.
 
>    Believe me my friend, varroa has better biochemical
>resources to fight ANY chemical substance, if you will not
>respect the severe administration methods with these "one
>type" treatment.
 
 Synthetic (or natural) pyrethroids are always going to have a limited
life. Their comparatively benign nature makes them relatively easy for
'natural' selection to get round. This is in common with all targets of
these treatments. There is nothing especially tenacious about varroa
which makes it a special case. Your remark about 'severe' administration
methods is off beam. Hanging a couple of strips in a colony, which then
barely notices their presence does not seem severe to me. There are
right ways and wrong ways to use the treatments. Not severe.
 
>    To respect ENTIRELY the administration of chemical
>treatments is IMPOSSIBLE! It will be always people, even
>your beekeeper neighbor, which will NOT treat their hives
>perfectly.
 
It is not a perfect world. Nothing and no-one in life merits total
respect. We have to make the best of what we have and not hanker after
some romantic ideal which cannot exist in practical situations.
>
>>Three years ago we bought 200 hives from the widow of
>someone who had
>>been using Thymol.
>
>        You probably do not know, but try to find out if was
>natural thyme oil or just the artificial version?
>
Unfortunately he is dead.
 
>        I agree with you here that thyme do not smell so
>nice, BUT:
>
>    * do you know what was the dose used by that beekeeper?
>
>    * do you know if he used it, as I mentioned above, AFTER
>he has collected his products?
 
I know he only used it in winter on little evaporator trays, probably
for control of Acarapis woodii.
>
>    I mentioned in a previous message to the list that there
>are MANY essential oils which has been already used and
>seems to be very effective, when applied correctly.
>    So, if you do not like the thyme smell, you can chose
>other essential oils, like pine oil, rosemary, lavender
>etc... Again, normally you will use them late in Fall and
>combined with several other alternative methods.
 
I cannot think that my clients are going to want to buy any honey that
does not taste and smell just as it ought to, and I cannot risk the
welfare of my staff by trusting that such a contaminant will be
acceptable to consumers. All our honey is filtered properly, and such
substances as fluvalinate will not be present in detectable amounts.
>
        Who are these authorities?
 
Practical people, researchers, academics, bee writers. A wide range of
understandably cautious people, most of whom I trust the views of.
 
 
>        Are you sure that they are not receiving personal
>advantages (financial, vanity etc.) by promoting the present
>obsolete (in my opinion) chemical treatments?
>
Knowing some of my contacts quite well I'm sure you have a point about
the vanity bit, but most of them would be highly insulted by this
remark. They are just friends, relating knowledge as it comes to them,
for NO gain.
 
>            In Bible it is written that you should first
>look into your eyes, to see if they are clean enough, than
>to look in the neighbor's ones...
 
And then leap into the abyss of bankruptcy....
>
>            Again, there are many areas in this world
>(Italy, Canada etc.), where the "Apistanotherapy" was used
>by all beekeepers in a certain area. However, the varroa has
>survived...
>            So, my friend, if you will continue with
>perseverance to use ONLY Apistan & alike, you will endanger
>your neighbors and will get probably in trouble for that...
>
And it will continue to survive into perpetuity. We will never be free
of it again, no matter how eco-friendly we get.
 
 
Murray
--
Murray McGregor