Hi Garth and All:
 
>Sorry to extend this one,
 
No need to apologize.  The subject has the potential to having a bearing on
the future of humanity if untreatable bacterial strains of some diseases
evolve.  Is that statement "alarmist" Allen?  Maybe we should be more
alarmed, because some of the people on the forefront of the continuing
battle with pathenogenic microbes think we could lose it.  CBC radio just
recently broadcast four one hour programs on the subject on their "IDEAS"
show.  The agricultural long term use of antibiotics is undeniably one of
the major culprits, and the longterm *preventative* use of tetracycline in
bees is not a lot different than feeding it to other farm stock, because
although we don't regularly eat the bees, as Garth said:
 
>Where a gene for resistance is present it moves very rapidly from
>bacterial host to host, and soon it destroys the usefullness of an
>antibiotic.
 
Allen said:
 
>You'll find the former group are busy people, taciturn after having
>once spoken, and unwilling to argue the same old matters over and over.
>The latter group seems to have endless time to spout conjecture about
>things in which they have little experience.
 
But I am sure that Allen was just having a bad hair day :) when he said
this, because although I have been on this list long enough to have read
plenty of discussion on the matter (including Allen's very considerable
experience as a large scale beekeeper and former bee inspector) I don't
think that the subject is "exhausted".  And if Allen considers for a moment
the international nature of this list, and the fact that regulatory
officials in a large number of countries (people who do have some
*experience* although Andy might argue not a lot:) have seen fit to prohibit
the use of antibiotics he might agree that the debate is still ongoing even
among busy experienced people.
 
I would like to bring fumagillan into the discussion.  Do you know Garth
what it's relationship is to other antibiotics?  Is it so different from
other antibiotics used by humans that fumagillan resistance would never be a
problem (except for nosema ridden bees) or might it be the starting of a
whole group of antibiotics for the future?
 
The following is taken from a post by P-O Gustaffson.  It is comments by
Ingemar Fries, an entomologist about fumagillan resistance:
 
There has been one attempt to monitor if fumagillin resistance can be
provoked in N. apis (Gross, K P; Ruttner, F (1970) Entwickelt Nosema
apis
Zander eine Resistenz gegen|ber dem Antibiotikum Fumidil B? Apidologie
1:
401-422.). No increased tolerance to fumagillin in the parasite has been
seen after long term exposure. The fact that the product now has been in
use for several decades without loss of effect also indicates that the
parasite is very slow or unable to develop resistance to this drug.
 
Ingemar went on to describe some of the methods used to control nosema in
Norway where fumagillan is not allowed (and where I can imagine winter can
be fairly severe!).  (The methods were fumagation and wintering on foundation).
 
In fact, I just read over ALL the posts in my bee-l "nosema" file, and I
have convinced myself that this is the last year I am going to spend a
thousand dollars on fumagillan without even testing for nosema, and without
fumagating with acetic acid.
 
Regards, Stan