I appreciate this post, as I do Garth's (as an aside and totally
unrelated, I have a fellow from South Africa named Garreth working here)
original post on the topic of symbiotic organisms which was very
stimulating.  FWIW I have never liked using any medications (and now I am
using the big A) and appreciate any reasoned and factual discussion.
 
Having said that, and revealed myself as a romantic, I have to accept the
empirical evidence to which I have been exposed over the years in my
functions as bee inspector and commercial beekeeper; although I was an
originally unwilling convert, for twenty years now there has been little
doubt in my mind about the wisdom of using oxytet.
 
There are some valid concerns, and the one that Garth brushed on is one.
The other that concerns me is the question of whether handling oxytet
causes humans to carrry resistant coliform bacteria.
 
The question of symbiotic bacteria is a fascinating one, and I have heard
it said that there are also fungi that are associted with properly
functioning colonies.  As for whether all North American bees are exposed
to oxytet and thus invalid subjects, I have to laugh and say that many of
my bees came from NZ and as we all know there is no oxytet use in NZ
(laugh here).  Many more came from Auz and of course no Auzzies use oxytet
(wink wink, nudge nudge).  Anyhow, if we dusted them, many probably did
not get around to noticing the stuff and are still simon-pure -- untouched
by the nasty stuff.
 
Anyhow the fact is -- as Andy has pointed out a few times -- bees fed
oxytet do better on the whole than those which are not (and presumably
still have all their flora & fauna intact).  If the symbiots give a
distinct advantage, then there should be an immediate loss of performance
if the bees are medicated.  No one to my knowledge has reported this, so
who can say.  Sometimes I forget to rush out and dust my exotic package
bees and frankly, they do not seem noticably appreciative or superior.
 
The quotes below are very helpful in understanding the resistant AFB
situation.  Thanks Judy (David?) for providing them.
 
> Interestingly, just today attended a state beekeepers' meeting.  The
> presenter was Dr. Shimanucki from the Beltsville Lab.  One of his topics
> was actually the use of terramycin for control of AFB...
<snip>
> A SINGLE 'resistant' strain of AFB was found in 4 states in 1996/97:
> Wisconsin, Minnesota, Iowa and South Dakota.  The one persistent item in
> each hive tested was the source for the nucleus hives that were used to
> start the hives.  He said one additional 'resistant' AFB was found in 1998
> in Connecticut.  After further investigation, the same common source for
> nucleus colonies was identified.  (Which perhaps would lead you to believe
> that the resistant strain is not an evolution of the original AFB spore,
> but perhaps a different spore).
 
I don't get this.  I get the *opposite* of that form the quote.
 
> They have shown that extender patties do not give a consistent amount of
> treatment thereby allowing the AFB to go unchecked. Not a resistance,
> but the lack of correct use of the treatment.
 
Interesting.  I've used both treatments and found the dust to be far more
unreliable and inconsistent.  We used a single extender patty on each of
48 hives made up of comb from infected comb (scale removed) we culled from
purchased equipment and had no subsequent observable breakdown in any hive
AFAIK.  I tried this years ago with dust and was rewarded with massive
breakdowns.
 
> The lab has identified that any "idea" of resistant strains of AFB can
> be linked to the use of "extender patties"  (vegetable shortening with
> the Terramycin added).
 
Just what does 'linked' mean?   Just being at the scene of the crime
proves nothing.  Victims are often found at the scene of a crime and so
are witnesses.  Neither are usually causally related to the event.  In
most people minds, anyhow.  Some have been known to blame the victim for
being there.
 
> Further there are three common factors they see in the requests they
> receive when beekeepers ask for identification of "resistant" strains the
> beekeepers have found in their hives.  The common factors are: 1.  The
> beekeepers use extender patties, not dust (which is the recommended way to
> treat) 2.  The beekeepers purchased nucleus colonies instead of package
> bees. (the exchange of combs being the factor) 3.  The beekeepers were not
> religious in their inspection of the hives and equipment perhaps resulting
> in the spore getting a strong hold before treatment with the patties.
 
The fact that extender patties were used means nothing unless it is shown
conclusively that there is a causal relationship.  This was not the only
thing in common.  The supplier was common to them all, I gather from the
above.  Perhaps there are other commonalities.
 
<begin rant>
 
(Move over dRone)
 
Patties appear to be scapegoats here.  Perhaps there is a political
component?  Foxes running the henhouse? IMHO there has been gross gross
gross negligence on the part of the 'bee scientists' and regulators in not
getting approval for alternate and very different control agents to
augment oxytet.  It was only a matter of time until it failed when used
exclusively.  Everyone knew that.  But guess what?  This will keep the
scientists and regulators in operating funds for quite a while fixing what
they should have prevented.  In the meantime, they are scapegoating the
one truly reliable treatment.  Well, I guess syrup is good too, except for
the fact that oxytet stability is poor and the active ingredient
degenerates quickly over time.
 
Really, now.  Dust!  Dust is the worst way to apply oxytet.  Use dust and
the inspectors will never get laid off.
 
<End (almost) of rant>
 
> The lab also feels that the strain is perhaps not a 'resistant' strain,
> but perhaps a new strain from someplace else.
 
Where have we heard that before?
 
> I asked the Doctor what side he is on regarding the use of Terramycin.  I
> was still unsure of our position.  The Doctor is on the side of "safe
> rather than sorry".  There are currently two treatments being looked at
> for future use.  One an antibiotic and one a 'natural' substance.  Both
> still being formulated.
 
Good.  Too bad that sulfathiozole, the magic bullet is not approved --
even for nucs and queen rearing outfits that don't make honey.
 
> If we were in Sweden where there is no foulbrood, I am sure our
> decision would be different.  It must be wonderful to know you can
> safely not treat. However, in the US, in this age, I cannot imagine the
> guilt I would feel if we lost our colonies due to our decision to
> experiment (and I do believe not treating is an experiment when there
> are known cases of AFB). We do not raise lab mice or bees for
> experimentation.  Can't afford it and I am a sucker for a cute face.
 
Amen
 
> Once a bee is developed that will need no antibiotics, I will be at the
> front of the line of buyers.
 
Behind me.  See you at Steve Tabers?  :)
 
> And there are none of us who have time to waste.  Interesting that
> education, and I believe Bee-L is educational for me, could be referred to
> as a waste of time...
 
Only if it is repititious and the result of people being too lazy to go to
a website and type a couple of words and press a button.
 
> I am still learning how to search the archives.  Have found great
> information so far, but still learning and hoping there are others willing
> to help me learn.  After all, conjecture resulted in the movable frame
> hives.
 
I'm not entirely convinced that moveable frames are an advancement.  Have
you ever seen skeps managed by a master?  I thought not they have been
stamped out by a pogrum against cheap equipment.  At one time all bee
publications of any size and influence belonged to bee funiture
manufacturers.  (As perhaps did the regulators :0  -- right Andy?)
 
Who says skeps cannot be inspected?  They can very nicely.  No one who
repeats that old BS has ever tried.  And the cutting of comb ensures
reduction of disease new wax.  There are  many more good points and FWIW,
there is apparently a commercial outfit in Germany running about 1000
skeps.
 
Anyhow, thanks for bringing some good stuff to this.
 
Allen
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