a couple of snips from Charles Linder and > my reply 
Does the refered document stand up as well as using michael bush, solomon parker and kert webster?

> I would consider only one of these to be a beekeeper and the other more about self promotion....

All I saw was a reference to "bee scource" which like going to a bar fight to learn about manners. The names you mention mean nothing to me, these are unpublished fountains of dubious wisdom. You have stumbled onto Bee-L. Many of us have 40-50 years of actual beekeeping experience. 

>Well just to be totally up front I was tossed from BeeSource by the owner primarily I guess (told later by a moderator) for defending commercial beekeeper and question some silly ideas there like 'small cell' and 'checkerboarding'.  There are good voices on BS but my problem was with the owner.  Since I am a stickler for honoring folks personal property when told to leave I did not let the door hit me in the a$%$ < you could not 'say' that on BS which does say something about the owner. 

This is not about whose mind is made up, it is about getting useful information that we can use to become better beekeepers. When some novice starts telling people they don't know what they are doing, expect to see some pushback. For every one great new idea there are about 1000 bad new ideas. 

> it is not necessarily just about good or bad ideas but about things that work in the real world (application). Lots of ideas just never work well in the real world even though they look flawless on paper.  

One of them mentions in public top entrances being more efficient,  yes,  because hes too lazy to mow,  and have bees in some of the ugliest hives ever!

>Well I will take and run with a good idea no matter the source < not that this idea applied here was derived from the above person. However I would suggest when you have an IT person (not sure what the resume requirements are for that?) talking in economic speak you might wish to question their thinking. I commonly see the same problem in some academic circles and here, whereby someone little topic of expertise somehow applies to handling world size problems.  Imho expertise and information is becoming more and more specialized and being a recognized expert in one field does not easily transfer to another. 

But here is the real crux  that I finally figured out how to phrase,  the above mentioned types are using a completely nonsensical measurement of success.  

>loosen up Charles.  success can be (should be I would suggest) self defined. set yourself some goal, objective or purpose and if you get there you are successful.  My point is success for most beekeeper should not be define by someone else. 


In the mean time  the members here do look at the work of these TF types,  and pay close attention, many of us have researched and tried all the things,  such as small cell and many other shall we say "experimental" things,  and despite ET's opinion some are  "closed minded"  (hes completely wrong) we will continue to watch what they do, try some thoughts, and should they have some real success, we will support them completely.

>I do not think I said that Charles but if I did I certainly do apologize. What I do think I did suggest to Glen was that several folks here were criticizing him for using anecdotal evidence as proof and quite frequently the same folks where using anecdotal evidence (sometimes pure speculation) as evidence themselves.  I certainly have committed the same crime on many occasions but do try to recognize when I do this myself. However when I do I rarely (almost never) blame my past failures on my neighbors < perhaps more importantly it is this with which I take issue and see this not only as a moral flaw and also as a personal failing. It is a commonly thread between sites like BS and BeeL in that speculation or the word of authority is repeated so often that folks actually believe it to be true.

Gene in central Texas

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