Charles, you are completely mistaken. In nothing I said was there any expression of any point of view. My question: should we give up, etc.? was hypothetical. Of course we shouldn't. Asking whether consumers viewpoint should be respected, implies no particular viewpoint. However, in communicating one can and should offer one's position, at the same time as listening.
Many times here at Bee-L I have stated that people need to understanding each other's positions, even if we are in disagreement. I have never suggested that you represent the Ag position and can't understand the modern consumers desires and phobias. I have never characterized farmers in any way. I know farmers and they are as different as any other group of people.
But, OK, how would you further or favor 2 way communication?
Pete, thanks for the reply, its a great conversation! I do realize some would like to stick 100% to bee Science, but if we were to do that this becomes very thin and boring!, many enjoy the back and forth debates, even when they stray. It is a quite simple matter to ignore those post which do not interest you, I do it quite often.
In this case I suspect you missed my point, There are many aspects to this communication. First one is the concept of voting with your dollars. Several here seem to think, shopping at whole foods, and voting with with your pocket books is a way to change things. Completely off target is what I am trying to say. The amount of "retail" food compared to commercial AG in miniscule. Consumer desire as you put it, is a complete misnomer and hopelessly optimistic!
For example Here in the Midwest we are what most would consider industrial AG about 40% goes into animal feeds, another 20% in ethanol production and about 35% into industrial items such as oils and plastics. The remaining 5% or less would be pumpkin's canolas, and white (food) grade corn and popcorns
Despite the quite interesting idea, that voteing at the store is a form of protest, most are completely mistaken about how that would look, or what it would accomplish. First off, there is absolutely no widespread demand for Organic almonds( most are not even remotely aware all almonds are treated with a very harsh chemical to remove salmonella) Almonds being one that is very hard on bees.
Move to oranges, about zero chance for pesticide free oranges, Is that something you look for when you buy juice? How about the Canola oil isle? Perusing the products for Neonic free canola oil? Or maybe peanut butter??
Switch to produce, any chance any of you have ever asked your produce manager for pesticide free produce? How many of you would redialy pick an apple with worm mark, let alone a slight blemish or mishappen? Head of lettuce with the chance of a catapilliar?? Not going to happen. I would venture a cash bet most of you would throw out an ear of corn with a corn borer munching away when husked. Oh sure a couple of you reading would say "I would" but the majority by and large will have a fit. Lets not forget how much of our produce comes from overseas! Most of us have forgotten those winter grapes are not us grown. While pondering grapes, not an issue for bees, but any idea how much pesticide goes into grapes?? Dang few have any idea how much pesticide goes into melons and pickles. So while we focus on pesticides in industrial farming, we really have no idea what were talking about.
Look at cereal, how many of the consumers are looking at non GMO corn as an issue? About none is the right answer. Most are shopping in the discount no brand section.
How many of the wonderful E85 users do we have? Any of them willing to pay another dime a gallon more for pesticide free ethanol?? I think that’s a tiny consumer market.
Are all those consumers ready and willing to see beef prices rise another 20%? Ask yourself that question next time your looking for the cheapest steak in the pile. I love the concept as it was mentioned for Grass fed beef! But when was the last time anyone insisted on pesticide free bacon?? Or chicken! Not a headline I expect to see soon. Whats happening is many are falling for a sales pitch. Designed to make you feel good. When you buy that Soy milk, or grass feed beef, or non GMO whatever, your not communicating to a farmer, your falling for a sales trick. By all means enjoy yourself. But in the real picture, its intellectual delusions at best. Localvores? All for it! Great idea. But not exactly changing the world in upstate NY in DEC!
Lets go to the other 2 methods for a moment, one is the one that I despise the most, the stand in front of groups and make statements. Statements not based in fact or reality. I cringe when I hear them, like a bad racist bill cosby joke. This is the one I try to point out, like here, And was the basis for my comment about no questions. You and others never seem to ask about farming ( I leave Randy out of this because we have had many discussion on the issue) You assume you know whats going on. Its quite obvious that the majority of people in the bee community are completely ignorant. It seems that being the proud owner of a beehive makes one think they are farming experts, and there for qualified to talk about pesticides and modern AG. One prominent person loves to rail against "vast monocultures" Nice article this month in ABJ debunking that problem. Funny part is it’s a simple one to fact check. But do we? Nope, we just parrot the line. Same as Neonics. I am just realizing how few people actually understand the pesticide issues, let alone farming.
You asked how to get your point across, what I want is for you (metphoricly) to ask how and why we are where we are. You (again a metaphor) want to rail against AG procedures, how about you first learn about them?
The last method is whats going on in the EU, we use foolish research and politics to make policy changes with not only not understanding the unintended consequences, but with ZERO regaurd to the known ones! I only hope others like the US will step back and watch instead of joining the flash mob.
TO answer your question, how do we communicate our desires to the AG community? First quit being chicken little fools! Get your facts in order first, and then a decent and fair plan of action that is a win win deal, Like the moth thing your posted about this week, serious potential for win win!, education of the problem and potential solutions.
Second get a priority! Its really hard for any AG community to get behind nonsense issues. Worrying about roundup on your oranges when citrus greening is destroying groves is just silly at best. Standing up in meeting complaining about farmers while asking for places to put bees is a very odd juxtaposition. Figure out how to educate them on pollinator issues, not berate them for feeding the world.
Less than 100 years ago, one serious generation, the concept of harvesting 40 bushels a day was ground breaking, today in the same fields we harvest 3000 bushels and hour, with less waste loss and inputs. Where we are is nothing short of truly remarkable. Should you get a chance, read "machines a plenty" short read, but quite worthwhile in my mind.
I very much appreciate the questions Pete, I am just now realizing just how uniformed our groups are. And as such I am quite guilty of assuming they know, and as such reply with answers or comments that don't give enough information. I assume most know what I know. I need to learn to Be more like Dick, in that the notes contain a bit more explanation and details. Fully aware that many here will never listen or change positions, but also aware of that I need to explain better. Sometimes hard to remember that, and keep bees. FYI I am working on a response to Jims Roundup position, that does that, explain more facts and history, and why I even do this.
Charles
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