>Probably the same is true about varroa. If it were not for the diseases
>that accompany mites, they might not even kill colonies.

The above is actually the point of Norman Carricks research. The conclusion
was if you control varroa virus issues are minor. If not for virus varroa 
would not be the problem it is.

>So really, it is the colony collapse that is the problem, not the mites.

I agree except for deformed bees. Problem is virus issues were always minor
before varroa.
My point is simple. The only feasible solution with 2 and a 1/4  million
hives in the U.S. is to control varroa.

No cure yet for the common cold?

 >We know that high levels of mites are associated with collapse, but we are
now seeing collapse with low levels, meaning that even with "better ways to
control varroa" the associated brood disorders are a thing themselves that
need to be reckoned with.

These are very rare. I have conceded to Randy I have observed a few cases
but in 90+ % high varroa load is involved from my experience.

I did an article on the Russian bee and on varroa tolerant bees around a
decade ago. "Shim" believed we would have a real varroa tolerant bee in 20
years. Dr. Shiminuki is the reason U.S. beekeepers have the Russian bee.
"Shim" went to Russia and headed the import.

All varroa tolerant efforts are worthwhile but so far not what we have hoped
for.

>Further, were it not for the viruses, hives might not collapse in the fall,
>giving us more time to treat the varroa, say with oxalic after the brood is
>hatched.

I agree. problem is exactly how are you planning to control virus. Some
magic potion ?
I am a realist. Varroa control is real. Virus control is *in my opinion*
unrealistic researcher BS!

HBH was first sold as the cure for varroa & virus. The USDA kept making HBH
stop making unproven claims. Now after all these years the only real thing
HBH does is help bees going off feed.

> Finally, if a virus controls are developed, colony collapse may be
> prevented despite high levels of mites, which could then be knocked back.

If we were in a poker game I would go "all in" betting on varroa!

>By the way, I never met Shim but if he is a true scientist, he is looking
>at the new stuff, not hanging on to old ideas of what works, what doesn't
>work, and what is worth looking into.

Dr. Shiminuki is retired in Florida and his wife keeps "over a hundred
hives" (or did) and was the Head of the Beltsville Bee lab when mites hit.
I admit "Shim" and I did not always agree but as the years passed I realized
the wisdom he had.

The two most knowledgeable USDA researchers I ever met were Dr. Shiminuki &
Dr. Harbo.

Thanks for the post Pete! I think we agree more than disagree on most 
points. If the tax payers want to fund bee virus research I am all for it. 
I am all for bee research.

bob

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