Brian said:
> NYT opinion piece on CCD - the comments are hilarious and unwittingly
> prove
>> the authors point about misinformation and folks wanting to believe their
>> own theory.

Bill said:
> Brian- great find with a reasoned argument. As far as the comments go, I
> see
> many of the same here on the list, including some recent posts.

a few comments on the article:

I have not seen this posted on BEE-L but expressed privately by certain
researchers.

from the New York Times article:
"Researchers  around the world are running around trying to find a cause for
the disorder (CCD) and there is absolutely no proof there's a disorder
there"

Let me play devils advocate:

Has science proved a new disorder exists? Canada says no disorder called CCD
exists in their country.
Spain says all CCD is is nosema ceranae.

Show me the proof Bill a *new* disorder exists. Show me the *science*.

The U.S. taxpayer has spent millions (at 18 universities) researching a new
disorder when as the author of the article so correctly expresses  proof 
*does
not exist* that a new disorder named CCD in fact exists or at least I have
not seen the proof..

CCD = hypothesis

Bill said
anecdotal evedence  trumps science every time.

The word science is used loosely on BEE-L. So far science has not been able
to explain CCD.

"You don't get reality with science you only get probabilities"

As far as the article and pesticides I think the NYT article takes a neutral
position.

From the article:
To date, no scientific evidence DIRECTLY supporting this conclusion has
emerged ( pesticides as cause for CCD although pesticides are listed by the
CCD team as one of four possible causes B.H.). Of course this could change .
The problem here is not that pesticides are a suggested cause of CCD -this 
is
perfectly reasonable to assume"

Also about the congress report:
"The report had something to say about pesticides as well. As 
environmentalists
RIGHTLY point out the new class of insecticides known as the neonicotinoids
are indeed taken up by the bees , along with a variety of fungicides and
herbicides. Although not in lethal doses , these agents did raise concerns
about possible problems caused by long tern expose".

The part about beekeeping in France not improving after Imid was banned was
incorrect. Several French beekeepers have posted on BEE-L the opposite was
true. it took a couple years to get IMID out of the soil but then the die
off improved.

Are there people on BEE-L which still believe long term tobacco use does not
link  to health problems other than those still smoking? I had a close
friend on his death bed while coughing up blood try to convince me his using
tobacco since he was 13 years old did not cause his lung cancer.

Science could never make the connection but the millions dying finally woke 
a
few people up. Pesticides are designed to kill. Poison! In the south illegal
aliens spray pesticides without protection. Many can't even read a label in
English.

As an orchard grower I understand pesticides , fungicides and herbicides.
Some sold at Wal-Mart I would not apply without a respirator and suit nor 
get
on my body but yet the label has no serious health warning.
I had a friend and fellow beekeeper Ronnie Danner. He sprayed around his
apple orchard 14 sprays a year with chemicals purchased at Wal-Mart without 
a
respirator. He died of a rare form of throat cancer.

Brain knows what I am saying.

I use IPM and where a suit made in Italy which runs off a battery pack and
pulls the air through two pesticide approved filters. Yes the suit IS
expensive as are the filters but what price do you put on safe spraying? My
help and I never let chemicals touch our skin nor breath the vapors.

Malathion & Seven are sold at Wal mart. Both are very toxic chemicals to
humans .
 I personally did not find enough wrong with the article to call the article 
freakonomics.

I do believe a problem exists which is killing bees and first investigated 
the problem in Florida in 2004 ( as the article states the problem started ) 
but have seen no proof the problem is new! Plenty of hypothesis from 
researchers wanting funds to research this (new?) problem but I have seen no 
proof CCd is nothing other than problems which have effected bees for years 
around the world..

No cause was ever found for disappearing disease either! However 
Disappearing disease never covered six years like CCD has and as Jerry B. 
points out in this months Bee Culture is still killing hives.

bob


" beam me up Scotty"

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