Hello Bill & All,

There is not clear picture of what CCD is or caused by.

However many of us believe that systemic pesticides are causing problems.
Sub lethal except with assail & in Germany blown from seeds. Certainly with
the Bayer product Temik.

> The debate is getting  a bit tiresome since it is more heat than reason
> and just about zero science.

It is for me also. I tire of presenting the majority of beeks around the
world position to a FEW!


.There has been
> absolutely no indication of any Neonicotinoids found in his hives.

We are talking sun lethal effects Bill. NOT LD50.

ALL Bayer research is based on LD 50.

Every time a post comes on saying the neonicotinoids are safe around bees I
am going to post like above!

You can believe what you like and I so far count maybe five members which
think the neonicotinoids are not causing problems around the world while
many many beeks in other countries are protesting in the streets. They are
all wrong and the five of you are right?

Until you post research saying the sub lethal effects of the neonicotinoids
are not causing problems then expect a response from me.

The burden of proof that the neonicotinoids are not causing sub lethal
problems with bees is on you . Not me!

 Show me some sub lethal research?

> From there we have the German incident, and now it is a given that CCD and
> Neonicotinoids are interlinked.

The German incident is pretty cut and dried. However the neonicotinoids have
not been totally ruled out as a cause of *some* of the reported survey
losses claimed as CCD.

Without a doubt some of the reported CCD losses were directly related to the
new nosema ceranae.

The rest of the losses are unexplained.

Jerry Hayes is a member of the CCD working group.

> little science. Pesticides bad, end of issue.

I say sub lethal effects of the neonicotinoids are causing problems . Prove
me wrong Bill!

Please do not point to chemical company paid for research! Their research is
all about LD 50.

They did no sub lethal research nor does Bayer labs own a single bee hive!

I believe that in a few years I will pull some of these posts and we will
see which side was right.


Even the French beekeepers saw
> their bees and saw they were disoriented, something not seen with CCD.

disoriented and not able to find their way back to the hive is not a
possible cause of CCD?

Bayer loves the word CCD.

 CCD is a BIG unknown Bill.

Bayer first fought French beeks by blaming varroa! At the time the French
beeks had a excellent varroa control to use. Sorry Bayer.


> So we have all this science which states unequivocally that they are not
> linked, but some say they are.

On sub lethal effects? We have none Bill!

Please understand why beeks are upset. At least some sub lethal testing is
soon to be done! Finally!

Your side( the neonicotinoids cause no sub lethal effects to bees)  has the
weak position in the debate.

 The problem is, there seems to be no die-off of
> insects around corn fields that would indict Neonicotinoids.

Don't you read my posts! The three largest beeks in my area starting losing
hives around corn that is teaseling! I have had emails from all over
reporting the same!

farmers using imidacloprid treated seed up to 8 years on the same ground!
Planning to do again next year. Wake up people!

> There is just no science from the anti-Neonicotinoids front.

Where is the testing on sub lethal effects of imidacloprid on insects? How
could registration have been given without such testing?


Bob standing by to refute all claims that beeks around the world are all
wrong about the neonicotinoids.
Is the new research on sub lethal effects shows bees are not effected than I
will back off. Until then I will not.

The majority of beeks see the neonicotinoids as problems for bees. Highly
toxic and found in all plant parts.

A handful of beeks on BEE-L think they have no sub lethal effects but
provide no proof to back up their hypothesis.

 I can't show the worlds beeks position much better than the above.

Show us some research showing that the neonicotinods do not cause sub lethal
effects (such as reported in France and Italy) and I will be quiet.

bob

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