In response to Allen and Dee's exchange about whether the "good old days" 
have returned, I want to first of all second Allen's request for numbers 
and hard information.  From my perspective, and I talk to a pretty good 
sampling of over a hundred different beekeepers every week, Dee's claims 
seem ridiculously exaggerated.

That said, and as fair as I think Allen's questions are, I'm concerned 
that some of Allen's implicit assumptions aren't consistent with real 
organic integrity (by which I mean something much broader than *any* set 
of rules.)  Peter's recent challenge about keeping bees without treatment 
in New York left me similar reservations.

For instance, I don't like the suggestion that the success of organic 
beekeeping should be judged by its ability to support huge monocultures 
thousands of miles away.  Certainly, if we want to say that these kinds of 
beekeepers can solve all *their* problems by just using XYZ, then this is 
a very appropriate standard to judge by, but I think it's also perfectly 
fair to suggest methods and models that don't support distant, giant 
monocultures, so long as we're honest.  In other words, why does organic 
have to prove itself on the conventional playing field?  Wouldn't that be 
like calling Walter Payton a mediocre athlete because he couldn't hit a 
home run?

What if organic beekeeping can succeed on an entirely different model?  
What if organic beekeepers don't keep 500 hives or make a living strictly 
from beekeeping?  What if lots of small, diversified farms have 20 or 50 
hives on the side?  Why is that *by definition* not real success?  I'm not 
saying organic beekeepers shouldn't have 500 hives, or that they shouldn't 
pollinate almonds, but one way or another, I think we should expect an 
organic model to look thoroughly different.  In other words, I think if 
there's any value to organic at all it will run deep.

I don't want to undercut Allen's very valid, implicit point that "n" 
matters if we're trying to prove something, but I don't think our pre-
determined definition of success should determine the size/scale at which 
we keep bees.  And I think meaningful organic integrity, if we value that 
at all, should be expected to lead to radical, fundamental differences.

Eric

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