> Jim put in some serious time.

Naw, I just type fast.

> Too bad we couldn't argue this over a couple of beers.

Anytime we are in the same zip code, and I'm buying.

> Now, as to why Joe's bees found their targets.  Since the bees
> can find the odor without ANY dance information, they will get
> to a scented target

But the targets in the study at issue were >>NOT<< scented!!!!
("Joe" is "J. Riley", author of the study at issue, for those
playing the home version of the game.)

> Also, Joe didn't paint his bees, but the GLUE is very volatile.
> In fact, I'm surprised it doesn't throw them off.

I'm not... there was no advantage to detecting odors in the
study at hand, so it did not matter.  Had it been a windless
day, or had the feeder been upwind of the hive, odors might
have certainly factored into the results, at least in terms
of how many bees might find the actual target rather than
just fly in the direction of the target.

> But note, we're the only one who ever uncoupled the dance
> from the odor (as far as getting bees to a non-reward bearing
> target that doesn't look like a flower or feeder -- its just
> a patch of dirt).

Well, read on for why I don't think you have "uncoupled" anything
and why your scheme "needs" dance. Ruth calls them "scouts", and
I call them "speculative sorties", but regardless, these are bees
who are predisposed to look elsewhere, overtly NOT at the "danced"
location of your feeder.

So, if I am on a speculative sortie, and all I have to go on is
the scent of the nectar that is coming in the door, I'm gonna do
what?  I'm gonna fly off in a "random" direction (or, more likely,
an ever-widening circle type search pattern, similar to an
orientation flight), and I'm gonna "see what I can find out there".

And if I am >>>REALLY<<< using "only odor", why do I not head straight
to the feeder only yards away from the hive?  Well shucks, that's
because I KNOW that actual nectar coming into the hive from that
site is limited, and I need to look elsewhere, as I paid attention
to THE DANCES ABOUT THAT EXISTING SOURCE!

Now this is pure speculation on my part, but I'd submit that
Jerry's entire scheme depends upon "dance", or no bees would
go anywhere but the feeder, due to the odor from the feeder
being "right on the hive's doorstep".  So, the speculative
sortie foragers see/hear/feel the dances, and use the vector
info (or the round dance description of "really close") to
EXCLUDE the feeder site as a source that is "overloaded" with
foragers, or perhaps "drying up".

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
<>
<> 'Cause if it was "all odor", why/how would ANY bee IGNORE
<> THE ODOR WAFTING FROM THE FEEDER and look anywhere else?
<>
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

> Jim says the dance will send foragers to other FOOD sources.  Maybe.

No, not in the least - I said that the feeder site being danced
about is being overtly ignored by these speculative foragers,
as described above.

Clearly, they may be paying attention to tropholaxis, or maybe the
whole hive starts to smell like the "nectar du jour", and even
tropholaxis is irrelevant.  Heck, tag some bees with number tags,
use an observation hive and look at how your toy actually works in
terms of what the specific bees that end up finding landmines do,
both inside and outside the hive.

An easy test would be to allow unrestricted access to your feeder
for a few hours, to "get 'em hooked", and then, if you were to
MORE SEVERELY restrict access to the feeder than you do now, you'd
see an increase in the number of bees resorting to speculative
sorties, and an increase in the number of landmines found per hour
versus what you have seen with less draconian restriction.

There ya go, a testable and falsifiable prediction that has actual
value to your core mission in terms of tangibly better performance
of your detection scheme.  If it works, you can let me keep the
very slick bee counter you sent me. (By the way - love the toy!
Do you need it back?  Say the word...)

> But, if you are a forager conditioned to landmines, YOUR floral
> constancy should be to a tray with oodles of syrup, that smells
> like a nitrogen compound.  Since that tray is by the hive, economy
> of effort would imply that any foragers from THAT SOURCE should be
> dancing to direct their sisters to THAT source.  In fact, we have
> to control access to the tray -- otherwise no bee goes anywhere other
> than to the tray.

OK, no surprises there - so, if you want to maximize the number of
speculative sorties, it should be no big surprise that if the
"nectar du jour" is coming in, but not keeping all foragers busy,
that more foragers will indulge in speculative sorties.

-- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and  other info ---