Hi to BEE-L

Allen Dick wrote:
Hmmmm.   So far, this is the first statement (I think) that
I have read that the capensis-like characteristics seen in
Arizona bees are indeed because the bees are capensis, not
just capensis-like.

Is there any evidence other than a similarity in some
behaviours, or is this just speculation?

Reply:
This appears to be just speculation on Bob's part. But If
Bob can imagine Capenis AHB in Arizona and California and
we are now not talking Scuts, then what really is
Africanization in the Americas? A change at will scenario
for any strain/race of African bee? But if Bob can change
the AHB recognized race one normally thinks of, then what
about the rest of the USA? buckfasts are then africanized
also with at least 5 maybe more strains of africanized bees
making it up, but I could be wrong.

Also if we are talking Capenis traits that Bob appears to
be afraid of IMPOV then what about capenis traits verified
by Makensen of the USDA in Golden Italian 57% verified when
checked for, regular 3-banded Italian 9% verified when
checked for, and caucasian 23% verified when checked for.
By the way ours were verified by the USDA (Drs Hoffman and
ERickson as 55.6% rearing worker brood from those colonies
checked from eggs of laying workers and 50% of those reared
regular queens.

Also stated by all of us in the paper published in 1991,
the LUS stock were selected from commercial European honey
bee stock, indicating then that thelytoky may exist as part
of the overall Apis mellifera gene pool. Also documented at
that time was that there were both similarities and
differences between laying workers of Cape bees and our LUS
strain.

Also I wish to state that prior to testing R.H. Anderson
collected for me in S. Africa both drones and workers from
12 different capensis colonies and mailed them to me so
that Dr Hoffman and Dr ERickson and the USDA could have
samples to compare our honeybees against to be sure later
on they would not be labeled (our bees now) as capenis.
This sampling was acknowledged to me in letter dated
1988/07/04 and samples were accordingly turned over to the
USDA as we had contract with them. Also turned over to the
USDA were samples sent to me from Bill Vanderput (per
letter April 30, 1988) of cape bee sample locations 4 and 5
of his trip to S. Africa (gathering information and samples
for the USDA) along with samples of scuts from location #3
of his trip. Other vials Bill Vanderput brought back if I
remember correctly went to Dr Keith Smith in Atlanta for
analysis.

Allen wrote:
 Dee tells me that to have the good disease and pest
management in a hive, she looks for at least one
sub-family of black bees and selects for that.

Reply:
Yes, We are in a temperate zone, not in a tropical zone
(sidenote here-snow predicted for Tucson starting tomorrow
night, not exactly a tropical event)and we try to manage
our colonies for several things. We are a natural
transition area where yellow and black bees come together
so on the flats they are more yellowish and in the higher
hills they transition into the dark side. We manage our
bees by breeding into and out of the yellow and black
breding zones by usage of out-of-season modified breeding
and have done so for a number of years.

Please see:
http://www.beesource.com/pov/lusby/apiacta1995.htm
published in Apiacta XXX pgs 20-29 titled Field Breeding
Basics for Honeybees using Colony Thermodynamics within the
Transition Zones.

We have found that having at least one small black
sub-family results in better disease control, better pest
control, better winter carry-over, and yes better
gentleness. Also less swarming and bees that stay with a
colony when animals predicate upon them so that we don't
find deadouts upon field maintenance checks periodically
done (we then stand the stacks back up, or put lids back
on, frames back in etc.and clean up the mess caused by
horses, cattle, vandals, etc.) We also breed out bees for
speeded up genetics so necessary for help in combating
mites.

Please see:
http://www.beesource.com/pov/lusby/abjnov1989.htm published
in American Bee Journal Nov 1989 titled: Managing Colony
Genetics by Grafting and Selecting for Queens with Shorter
Development Times (and by the way, verified by
co-authorship with USDA - Dee here).

Since we are on our selection methods for our bees, also
please see:

http://www.beesource.com/pov/lusby/apiacta1992.htm
published in Apiacta 1992 titled Suggested Biological
Manipulative Treatment for Control of Honeybee Mites

The above we used in conjunction with the US FIFRA code for
formal request for biological methods for our industry in
Arizona for control of perasitic mites so beekeepers
wouldn't be forced into using chemicals. However under the
FIFRA code it must be asked for the biological option to
use vs chemical controls. But once asked for it SHALL
(which is must under the law) be given and allowed.


Bob Harrison wrote:
>  and  wish the USDA had looked at =
> their hives earlier if capensis genes  are  the cause of
the large
=
> amount of thelytoky going on in their bees.

Allen Dick replied:
I think they have.  Maybe Dee will step out here and say
something?

Reply:
I think I have said and asnwered this above. Yes, thelytoky
is deeply involved with our bees, but the trait is also
there for all bees on a natural system. So what is wrong
with wanting a natural system of beekeeping that is clean
and sustainable?

Other things we have also strived to do besides breeding
for self-sustaining bullet proof(mite proof/disease proof)
bees were 1) to reduce labor costs 2) to reduce wear and
tear on our vehicles by eliminating back trips for various
doping of chemicals and putting in and retreiving of queen
cages, cell cups, etc. 3) to reduce costs associated with
actal treatments as chemicals are expensive and
contaminating 4) reduce winter loss 5) reduce queen failure
agonized over by other commercial beekeepers.

What is wrong with being self-contained with own stock and
keeping costs to a minimum and owing certs and fees to
no-one.

Allen replied to Bob here:
> "Thinking if the bee looks like a capensis and has all
the =
> characteristics of capensis it must be capensis"=20

Well, that is just a maybe, and also still a big 'IF'

Reply:
Take away the name of bees and you have yellow and black,
small and large and all demonstrating (at least in the
past, and some not so distant past if our read the
references) thelytoky. It is natural and necessary and when
Italian were originally bred and referred to as a
thorooughbred bee no one quetioned. When Tunisan bees were
brought to the Northeast of the USA no one questioned. When
caucasian was brought to the USA no one questioned. It is
how the bees all envolved over time. Bees cannot transition
into and out of various zones on earth with out backup
breeding scenarios.

Plants propagate by seeds and cuttings. It is dual for
continuation of species. Bees follow plant genetics
somewhat and many insects like bees have this trait. Bees
can propagate by queens laying eggs, but this is during
times of good, and everyone one can breed during times of
constant good. But in bad times things get rough and other
avenues are needed for survival. Stress at times is rough.
But only through stress breeding do you make change to get
what you need in characteristics and traits for
survivalability for ones bees.Virgin queens or even queen
cells droping into colonies with out of season breeding
programs accomplished this. W.T. Kelly for years sold and
maybe still does fall queens. Any one ever thought Why?

Perhaps the similarities between thelytoky and fall queen
or out of season breeding with virgins should be explained.
Maybe it would explain my Dr Mackensen saw so much
thelytoky. On another note concerning the Tucson lab while
I think of it. H.K. Poole working in Tucson at the lab
there was into this kind of research years ago. I believe
Taber has said that he found (Poole here) that about one
worker out of 100 was capable of laying an egg that day. I
even think Steve himself has seen it and stated so. It is
nothing new. Nothing to be afraid of, except maybe unless
you are afraid of not having to worry about mites and
diseases when you place your bees back onto a natural
system again, and yes in conjunction (mandatory) also use
small cell size foundation.

Regards,

Dee A. Lusby




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