On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 11:29 AM, Bill T <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Let us say that the neonics are the cause of all our troubles.
>

Let's not.  First of all it doesn't have any purpose.  It is probably
untrue.  And it is unnecessary.
And, although I have been concerned about neonics for 23 years now, long
before CCD,  I have never said that they were the cause of CCD.  It is you
who keeps saying that people who are concerned about neonics are claiming
that they are the cause of bee dieoff around the world.  A lot of the
sensationalized press articles are linking the two as well.

Is it not enough that the most commonly used insecticides in the world now
is a class of insecticide that by its very systemic nature is very
persistent in the environment and goes into pollen and nectar?  Doesn't
that concern you Bill?  Why do you keep going back to immediate lethality?
The fact that this insecticide class is now so omnipresent that the dairy
farmer I spoke to (who doesn't want to put anything on his corn) can't get
untreated corn seed is a problem.  If it is so omnipresent and if it has
sublethal effects or any suppression of the immune system of bees then that
is concerning for beekeepers I think.

>
> A crop has neonics applied. An apiary is sited nearby. The apiary then is
> under the continuing influence of the neonics. You therefore should have
> continuing symptoms of pesticide poisoning.
>

Did you ever put pollen traps in a bunch of hives in one apiary, Bill?  The
interesting thing is that they don't all collect the same pollen.  Some
have mostly one colour, another will be working a different colour.  The
difference is striking.

>
> So do all the beekeepers who claim neonics are the problem have large kills
> every year, which I would think would happen, or do the success rates vary
> from year to year, which, all other things being equal (Varroa and nosema
> control), they should not.
>

Even in the years when imidacloprid first came here (and I believe PEI got
an emergency registration in 1990 and it was the first in North America) I
did not have large losses every year.  What I did see, when large doses
were being applied by soil injection was losses in the beehives of a type
that I had never seen before, and if you look at posts that I made to the
bee list in the 1990's you will see that I called it disappearing bee
disease because suddenly hives that had many frames of brood were left with
a queen and small bunch of bees and the untended brood got diseases.

>
> The losses among the most vocal anti neonic beekeepers seems to be more
> cyclic, but am happy to be corrected.
>

I never saw cyclic losses.  When farmers shifted to set treatment from soil
injection I saw losses lessen.  We still have 1200 hives to unwrap but
losses in the first 2000 are running about 10 percent (before dink culling
which will add another 5 percent at least).  Losses in the hives that were
in thiamethoxam treated canola last year are not significantly higher than
other hives.

You seem to be seeking a black and white answer to something that is grey.
But neonics are VERY present everywhere now.  I don't think much of our
grain here is treated, but most of the soybeans are, and that has become
one of the major crops here.  Previously dairy farmers growing corn for
silage and farmers growing soybeans didn't usually spray ANY insecticides.
The odd time there was a pest problem and they would have to, but most
years they didn't use anything.  So it is not necessarily a case of "what
will replace neonics", but rather it is partly a question of should we be
spreading long term acting insect poison as a matter or course (instead of
doing IPM).  Would you put mite treatment in your hives before you even saw
a mite problem starting?  Would you not be a bit concerned if the only
foundation you could find  was already treated with a miticide and you
couldn't even find untreated at the foundation / seed dealer?

Stan

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