In message <[log in to unmask]>, Dave 
Thompson <[log in to unmask]> writes
>Those bees were not really "native" to Ukraine
>since 10K years ago and for ~80Kyr previous
>there were no bees in Ukraine, only glaciers
>and tundra

There were no bees in Britain either if you go far enough back and its 
plenty long enough for a sub group off A.m.m. to have arrived and 
differentiated itself. I very much doubt that a map of native bee types 
10K years ago, in the temperate and sub arctic transition zones at 
least, would look very much like one you would see today. Not least of 
all because it would be of lesser northerly extent.

>The question is: where did those migrants (to  ukraine),
>9Kyr ago come from?  Slovenia or Macedonia?

 From having trialled both I am sure Carnica and macedonica are very 
similar bees, also cecropia for that matter. Probably at the time range 
you talk about they may have had a common root. Who knows? It is plenty 
of time for a natural migration of bees (into Ukraine) to have happened 
and for significant differentiation to have taken place.
>
>On a practical level russians DON'T seem
>similar to carniolan

Depends just what carnica you are talking about. Slovenian carnica I 
have had differ from German and Polish supplied carnica, and radically 
from NWC. Huge variations in stock within races abound.

Probably the best description I have heard, and there are conflicting 
statements made about them (but based on what authority is unclear), is 
that they are 'carnica type' bees rather than any assertion being made 
that they are just the same as bees from their original range(s).

What seems sure is that they are not 'Russian' bees in the narrow sense 
applied in their homeland, as those are local ecotypes of A.m.m.. I have 
a correspondent who uses a strain referred to (by him) as 'Mid Russian' 
which in his own words are 'very black and very nasty'.
-- 
Murray McGregor

****************************************************
* General Information About BEE-L is available at: *
* http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm   *
****************************************************