Mike Leghorn ([log in to unmask]) wrote:

>Oops, I forgot!  Btw, did you know that Beethoven took the dah dee
>daahhh, duh dah dah dee deeeeeee theme (without modification) from a
>Mozart overture.  I don't remember the name of the overture, but I did
>hear it once, and that theme stuck out as clear as day.

While not doubting what you say (although I certainly can't palce it) I'd
just point out that B's theme is simply the notes of a major triad.

>Actually, I think
that the Eroica was somewhat of a tribute to Mozart.  For one thing, I
think that the complexity of the last movement of Mozart's 41st provided
the "proof of concept" which gave Beethoven the courage to embark upon the
complexity in the development of the 1st movement of the Eroica.  Also,
>Beethoven used four notes in the last movement in a similar way that Mozart
>used four notes as a basis for intensely complex counterpoint in the 41st.

Here I have a little more difficulty.  I'm not convinced that Beethoven
ever needed somebody else's example before him in order to justify his
own vision.  Also, while it's true that he used a four note phrase in the
finale, he had already used the same four notes similarly in the "Eroica"
Variations which were also based on the theme from Prometheus.  The four
notes he arrived at by the simple expedient of dropping an octave in the
bass line of the main melody rather than keeping it constant - as it did
in Prometheus and also the Kontretanze using the same theme (now, IIRC,
believed to have been written 2nd) which appears complete and in its
original orchestration in the finale of the 3rd, the point where the
main theme first appears.

If we're looking for four-note-fuge-examples aren't you forgetting someone?

B-A-C-H

>Since I've become aware of the significance of these four notes, I think
>I've discovered another similar usage of four notes in the first movement
>of Vaughn Williams' 8th Symphony.  He also uses a four note sequence in the
>3rd and 4th movements of his 4th Symphony.  ...

I believe RVW acknowledged using Beethoven 5 as the structural model for
his 4th symphony.  Incidentally, although that 4-note theme has sometimes
been mistaken for BACH, it's actually BAHB.

deryk barker
([log in to unmask], http://www.camosun.bc.ca/~dbarker)