Margaret Mikulska:

>I hate to be a spoil-sport, but the fact that the c-d-f-e motif
>occurs in Mozart's first symphony (E flat, K 16) has been well known
>for many years. The motif itself comes from plainchant, although I
>can't recall right now from where exactly - I think it's one of the
>Gregorian Gloria movements.

Why would this make you a spoil-sport, Margaret? Anyway, what I
found interesting about this observation was not so much the discovery
itself (which could obviously not have been new, given that the sighting
I reported was from the 1870s) but rather the fact that Volkmann had
already engaged in 'motif-spotting', reminding me of the past discussions
on the list and making me think that this might be an amusing tidbit to
share...  no Earth-shattering implications intended!  I don't know if he
himself made anything of that connection, however, apart from pointing out
to his students that they were 'from' KV 16.  (Could this have been common
knowledge around that time already, or did Volkmann just study his Mozart
with particular diligence?) But thanks for providing the information about
the roots of this motif in plainchant.  Of course, the appearance of these
notes in various works by various composers could have been a coincidence,
but the plainchant origin would certainly explain its ubiquity (not
unlikely, then, as Steve Schwartz suggested, that composers would have
been regularly exposed to it while studying counterpoint).  And it is
nice to know where they are from, for even though that motif may not
carry any particular significance in itself, it is special to me for no
other reason than its association with the Jupiter Symphony, which still
remains the most special symphony of all to me.

Paul Silverthorne:

>There is a sighting closer to hand.  If you have the score of the
>Jupiter, turn back a page from the Finale and look at the Flute &
>violin parts at the double bar of the Trio.

You mean g# - a - c - b? Well, if this should indeed be deliberate and
not just a coincidence, I would consider it much more interesting than
any of the other sightings.  The use of such a motif in a number of
different works by a number of different composers is indeed explained
quite straightforwardly by what people have pointed out - a commonplace
that was simply in composers' minds at the time and found its way into
their thematic material more than once.  However, a motivic cross-reference
across different movements of the same work, in such close juxtaposition,
actually seems more intriguing, because the chance of a coincidence is
smaller.  Wouldn't this be rather an uncommon practice for the era if it
was deliberate? I've always thought of this as more of a Lisztian thing.
Or do such patterns occur more frequently in the classical era than I'm
aware? This symphony never ceases to amaze me.

Pablo Massa:

>>[...] "Beethoven knew the famous four notes.  But he surely knew
>>Mozart's G Major Quartet (dedicated to Haydn) and the 'Jupiter'
>>Symphony as well, in addition to Haydn's Quartet Fugue in F Minor
>>and his 'Drum-roll' Symphony."
>
>This is a good example of "deduced" evidence.  Psychiatrists knows
>this as one of the mechanisms of paranoia.

To Kenton's defense (don't have him admitted quite yet), I think that
his intention was probably just to point out that this motif was, in fact,
a commonplace, and Beethoven could have been familiar with it from any
of these sources (or any source they all shared in common), without
necessarily intending to make a direct reference to any particular work
(like the Jupiter or KV 319) - so I am not sure whether his words really
support Mike Leghorn's assertion of a deliberate reference by Beethoven to
the Jupiter.  If Beethoven made use of them at all, that is - not being a
great admirer of his, I must admit - blushingly - that my Beethoven
discography is still very, very spotty, so I am unable to make any
judgement of my own.

Regards,

Daniel Christlein