Margaret Mikulska: >I hate to be a spoil-sport, but the fact that the c-d-f-e motif >occurs in Mozart's first symphony (E flat, K 16) has been well known >for many years. The motif itself comes from plainchant, although I >can't recall right now from where exactly - I think it's one of the >Gregorian Gloria movements. Why would this make you a spoil-sport, Margaret? Anyway, what I found interesting about this observation was not so much the discovery itself (which could obviously not have been new, given that the sighting I reported was from the 1870s) but rather the fact that Volkmann had already engaged in 'motif-spotting', reminding me of the past discussions on the list and making me think that this might be an amusing tidbit to share... no Earth-shattering implications intended! I don't know if he himself made anything of that connection, however, apart from pointing out to his students that they were 'from' KV 16. (Could this have been common knowledge around that time already, or did Volkmann just study his Mozart with particular diligence?) But thanks for providing the information about the roots of this motif in plainchant. Of course, the appearance of these notes in various works by various composers could have been a coincidence, but the plainchant origin would certainly explain its ubiquity (not unlikely, then, as Steve Schwartz suggested, that composers would have been regularly exposed to it while studying counterpoint). And it is nice to know where they are from, for even though that motif may not carry any particular significance in itself, it is special to me for no other reason than its association with the Jupiter Symphony, which still remains the most special symphony of all to me. Paul Silverthorne: >There is a sighting closer to hand. If you have the score of the >Jupiter, turn back a page from the Finale and look at the Flute & >violin parts at the double bar of the Trio. You mean g# - a - c - b? Well, if this should indeed be deliberate and not just a coincidence, I would consider it much more interesting than any of the other sightings. The use of such a motif in a number of different works by a number of different composers is indeed explained quite straightforwardly by what people have pointed out - a commonplace that was simply in composers' minds at the time and found its way into their thematic material more than once. However, a motivic cross-reference across different movements of the same work, in such close juxtaposition, actually seems more intriguing, because the chance of a coincidence is smaller. Wouldn't this be rather an uncommon practice for the era if it was deliberate? I've always thought of this as more of a Lisztian thing. Or do such patterns occur more frequently in the classical era than I'm aware? This symphony never ceases to amaze me. Pablo Massa: >>[...] "Beethoven knew the famous four notes. But he surely knew >>Mozart's G Major Quartet (dedicated to Haydn) and the 'Jupiter' >>Symphony as well, in addition to Haydn's Quartet Fugue in F Minor >>and his 'Drum-roll' Symphony." > >This is a good example of "deduced" evidence. Psychiatrists knows >this as one of the mechanisms of paranoia. To Kenton's defense (don't have him admitted quite yet), I think that his intention was probably just to point out that this motif was, in fact, a commonplace, and Beethoven could have been familiar with it from any of these sources (or any source they all shared in common), without necessarily intending to make a direct reference to any particular work (like the Jupiter or KV 319) - so I am not sure whether his words really support Mike Leghorn's assertion of a deliberate reference by Beethoven to the Jupiter. If Beethoven made use of them at all, that is - not being a great admirer of his, I must admit - blushingly - that my Beethoven discography is still very, very spotty, so I am unable to make any judgement of my own. Regards, Daniel Christlein