Greets Curtis and All You mention that Apis itself may be in an evolutionary cul de sac. I beg to differ on a philosophical level. If we look at successful organims I am tempted to classify them as things that can use lots of resources and defend their right to do so. Humans (depending on brand name) occupy and use lots of resources from Antartica to the top of the other side. Rats by means of their intelligence and adaptibility occpuy a similar niche by cohabiting with humans. E.coli, our friendly gut bacteria manages to live at the same range of humans by living in the human gut and actually piggy backing on our rampant sexual nature to transfer itself regularily throughour the human population. (I read somewhere that through a combination of handshakes and sexual activity it takes the offspring of one original e coli cell on a contact organ about five weeks to be present on all continents!!) But Bees such as the Apis mellifera species occupy a range from Denmark to Cape town at the tip of africa and without man being here they would do it just as welll if not better. (in africa bees would love not having humans around which would make up for the little loss in the north) A social insect, using a brain the size of a pinhead almost has the same range as us and a better political system!! Now as far as the otto cycle is concerned, when watching a beehive one will see how bees do a 'silly thing' every now and then. They just do something for the hell of it. Maybe they chew a hole through the side of their tree. This makes a cold wind blow through the hive. The next day they plug it with gum. Those are the scientist in a beehive. They test something, it does not work, so it is fixed. The hole was useless, but propolis that fixed it is quite a handy thing. Oh well. Keep well Garth Garth Cambray Camdini Apiaries Grahamstown Apis mellifera capensis Eastern Cape Prov. South Africa Time = Honey