In article <[log in to unmask]>, petty <[log in to unmask]> writes >I have not yet heard anyone mention that the Apistan strips should be >removed BEFORE the time that a typical vegetable garden is in bloom. >if you leave Apistan in all year YOU will be partially responsible for >helping to develope RESISTANT mites!! the whole point is that the Apistan >knock the mite level down to a level below the damage threshold. removal >of the pesticide is crucial to prevent the genetic selection of resistant >mites. there has been a lot of good research on this latey. unfortunately >most of the findings are published in journals that are not popular amongst >most beekeepers. >leaving Apistan in all year is lazy and irresponsible! >anyone remember Integrated Pest Management??? As one of the posters previously making a small contribution to this rather odd thread, and possibly having been misunderstood, I should like to point out that the original question only indicated concern that untreated colonies might not survive in the area and that treated colonies might compromise the organic status of the garden. At no time, even tacitly, did I suggest leaving Apistan in continuously, which would, as the above respondent indicates, be bad practice. The thread concerned the principle of Apistan treated colonies and any (I believe none) effect they would have on organic gardening, rather than methods and timing of Apistan application which are made perfectly clear by the manufacturers and a whole host of other respondents in the past. The whole concept that a plant in an otherwise organic regime is rendered non organic through having been pollinated by a bee coming form an Apistan treated colony is, to me, bizarre. Much seems to center on the old potato about fluvalinate being persistent and tiny residues of it getting spread everywhere by the bees. It is NOT persistent and has a very short life outside oil based environments, as is the case with most (all?) pyrethroids, synthetic or natural. I know that we are dealing with a concept here, and that the organic people are seeking a style of life and production method based on certain principles. I had a long and involved argument with Allen and others centered on, but not restricted to, this very issue fairly recently. Ideals in this case must be tempered with some idea of reality. If a bee emanating from a hive which has been treated with fluvalinate some time in the preceding two years enters a garden or farm being run organically and pollinates a plant there the garden is rendered non organic? Or, as one suggested, if you place the hive OUTSIDE the perimeter of the organic area by one yard it does not damage the status, and two yards away on the INSIDE of the fence it does? All because of a non persistent chemical in part designed to help ensure the plants get pollinated at all, which may have been used in the preceding two years and with which the bee in question may even have had no contact? If these are sufficient causes to prevent organic status (and I am quite sure that they are not), then the air the plants respire and the rain from heaven above will (and do) add many times more residues to the system. Thus, truly organic production is virtually impossible, even without the more spectacular examples such as 'blue ice' raised by others. On the other hand, and so far as I understand it from a UK perspective, the main thrust of the issue is, that if you adopt a set of principles preset by, or on behalf of, this particular interest/consumer group, and adhere to it rigidly throughout a transition period, you can attain organic status in agriculture and horticulture. It is a set of principles and methods and NOT a guarantee of absence of residues. The individual/customer is buying into a lifestyle and thus they set their own agenda. (So, in that respect at least, Harry's point, which he admits is illogical, about which side of the fence you place the hive on making a difference, could just be technically valid. Your neighbour could spray his non organic crop with some awful pesticide which drifts in the wind in substantial amounts onto your crop and you remain organic, but spot treat a problem yourself, with nominal amounts of even fairly benign products and you lose your status.) As I have said before, I am not an organic fan and do not buy organic goods. I think that there are far too many uncertainties to ponder, and every issue in this context seems to give rise to even more questions and fewer sensible answers. From where I stand, there are many far more important things in life than whether the zucchini I will be eating in my lunch was pollinated by an Apistan treated bee. Murray -- Murray McGregor [log in to unmask]