I haven't followed this discussion very closely, but what is the problem with frame grips. I use the grips purchased from Walter Kelly Co. and they are the greatest thing since sliced cheese. I have fat fingers and don't exercise much any more. Therefore my fat fingers are not as strong as they once were. I take my hive tool and cut out he glue, ease the grip down the side, and apply a slow even pull. The frame slides out with no massed bees and I don't get stung. Works great every time. At 09:24 PM 10/4/96 -0700, you wrote: > To be successful with frame grips you need a very strong > co-ordinated wrist. > caroline > >