Hello Scot & All, >If you take bees and allow them to build their own combs, they tend to build small cell or something approximating it. Our experience has been they build the approx. size comb from which they swarmed from as we catch many of the swarms from out own bees and have checked. At times larger cell. >Now to answer your question strictly related to bees and small >cell; small cell does prove to be a large part of the varroa management factor in our operations. By point: 1) When bees are raised on small cell brood combs, their brood cycle is reduced by 1 or 2 days compared to bees on 5.4mm foundation. This reduces the length of the number of brood cycles a female mite can complete, and therefore reducing the growth rate of varroa populations. Certainly a possible hypothesis but not one generally accepted by reaserchers. 2) Varroa like any other parasite relies on good sources of nutrition. Large bees produce more hormones and nutrient's than small bees. The varroa mite has exhaustively been documented to prefer drones, and select as a 2nd choice large worker cells, leaving smaller cells as a last alternative. Although I agree in general. We have NEVER been able to determine why varroa prefers drone brood. Cells could or could not be part of the reason. Different JGH is also a hypothesis. 3) bees on small cell show evidence of certain hygenic activities that their cousins (queen sister's brood) placed on large cell do not. First I have ever heard of the above small cell hypothesis. I am from the "show me state". I will have to be shown the above before I buy in but will keep an open mind. The above implys that if I take my strain of Italian bees and downsize onto small cell certain hygienic activites will start to happen. Been there done that and did not happen. .> The bees recongize a worker cell that is infested with varroa and they chew the cell out, pincing the varroa. The dead bee is later removed during house cleaning periods. This behavior has been observed in bees on all cell sizes. > It is never-the-less something you do not see occuring with any regularity occuring within large cell hives. I believe the genetics has more to do with the above than cell size. > How can you say that bees can't tolerate varroa, varroa isn't some new breed spontaneously becoming an epidemic, its a breed of pest that has been around for quite a long time, longer than fathomable by many folks. The bees we have here in the USA have at some point or points in their ancestry had to deal with varroa and its ancestry since the genesis of their respective species. The honey bee has been studied for hundreds of years. Regardless of Dee's hypothsis (explained by her on BEE-L years ago) that varroa has always been around in U.S. beekeeping and we just discovered varroa. We know beyond a shadow of a doubt through the beekeeping research done in the U.S. varroa was an introduced pest. ( 1987). With all due respect to Dee & others I would drop the *been around forever in U.S.* hypothesis. We also know when varroa jumped hosts from A.cerana to A.melifera and the location . Bob Its part of who the honey bee is, its part of their environment that shaped and shapes them whether past and present. Its one of the stresses that helped the honey bee become who it is today, and will continue to shape its evolution during its tenure on our planet. Further is the varroa is successully eradicated (not remotely likely), another stress factor will fill the void and the cycle will begin anew. > (So, what, if anything, happens if one > shakes the whole small-cell colony onto fully-drawn "normal-sized" comb? The bees may reject it and abscond or squander. They may lay in it, and in watching through several complete brood cycles, one sees that the bees' hygenic habits change for the worse. They become lazy, inverse to them becoming more vigorous as they are returned to smaller sizes. > And then what happens if one swaps > out the queen? And so on, each move aimed at narrowing down the actual > mechanism > at work here.) Of course changing the queen will change the character of the hive, I am not even sure why you would bring this up. What will happen? Who can say, changing the queen in any hive is the same as changing the queen in any other hive. Its a weighted crap shoot. > > Are small-cell beekeepers simply unwitting "SMR breeding program > Do-It-Yourselfers"? > If not, how would anyone know for sure? Yes they most certainly are. They question you probably SHOULD have asked is whether these new SMR characteristics will continue to be expressed if one returns the bees to large cell hives. That answer is most likely -- sometimes. > > You will continue to see varroa in your hives, the difference is your > > hives will not crash because of it. The varroa population remain > > maintained instead of overwhelming your bees. > > So your mite counts rise to a certain level each year, and then hover > there? I didn't say they rise and hover, I said they remain managed. > That's interesting and new information, as it would mean that SOME > varroa are reproducing, but not many of them. Of course, if they didn't do so, they would not exist at all now would they? Large cell beekeeping isn't a major part of the bees' ancestry, its a recent event which has effected their recent short term adaptation, but isn't part of their ancient evolution. The mite didn't just spontaneously occur, its simply found a new weakness to exploit because of our dickering with the natural way of the bees. Just as us providing chemical and other treatments has given nature another tool to exploit weakness in the varroa. > The lack of any mite count > records over time for even a single small-cell colony is a real impediment > to the small-cell advocates gaining acceptance for their approach. If mite counts are not the issue but the bees' ability to manage its coexistence with varroa, why would mite numbers be important? Not knowing the number is not an impediment at all to small cell advocates. We are already practicing sound successful methods of operation. Why do you reject something that works? Just because you don't have the numbers? That's pretty silly wouldn't you agree? If a boat floats, it floats. If it sinks it sinks. > > There is only one way to know for sure, its not through reading, its not > > through listening to others advocate it, and it is certainly not through > > the arguments about it, the only way is to find out for yourself > > OK, here's I would "find out for myself": > > a) Get some existing small-cell colonies that have been > properly regressed by someone who knows how to do this, > as my attempts at this failed. > > b) Drop them off at a legitimate research facility for > them to record mite counts and monitor the colony > while doing normal beekeeper maintenance, but no > mite treatments. Read the response to C > c) Sit back and wait for the results, which will be initially > authoritative on the sole point of "do these colonies > really survive varroa?". Actually, if the bees survive, then THIS would answer whether the bees survive. Numbers would be moot, because the bees are still there or they are not. What would be a more appropriate measure of the success of varroa (and pest/disease) manageability is the measure of strength of the hive and its production and whether its still there tomorrow. > d) Run a second study after the first, where we swap combs > in and out, swap queens in and out, and so on in an attempt > to narrow down root causes, and, one hopes, show that we > can, in the same colony, increase mite counts, and then > lower them again by merely moving the colony between combs > left over from various stages of regression. Or something. Again, the result is what's important. Evolution has already performed these tests, just because you don't comprehend the current results (which is simply a matter of survival and competion and has nothing to do with numbers), does not mean that the results are not conclusive. Numbers on paper do not measure whether a hive will survive and compete or not, the only thing that can do that is the continued success or failure of the bees. We should stop monitoring the varroa and perhaps start monitoring the bees? How's that catch you? > Monitoring a colony or three for mite drop and "survival" with the usual > beekeeper > maintenance, but without use of miticides would be an easy and very > low-cost project > to run. What studies have been done to date have stumbled on the > "regression" step, > resulting in some hard feelings on the part of the small-cell enthusiasts > toward the researchers. Why would it cause hard feelings? Those of us that survive will continue while those who do not, quite simply do not. I am not here to play games, I am here to live. > > U. Georgia is not too far from Sarasota, and I am quite sure that they will > not mind a small project that arrives at their door fully funded and fully > equipped. > It would help to start with "completely regressed" colonies. It would also > help to have some "transition" combs from some midpoint during the > regression process for step (d). > > > and to keep a few small cell hives and keep them for more than just a > > year, it takes a while to see the continued benefits. > > How does the colony survive during the period when one "can't see the > benefits"? So are you saying because you don't understand the successes of bees that the percieved benfits aren't forthcoming? Sounds like more silliness to me. > > jim (Yes, I am an agent of Satan, but > my duties are purely ceremonial) Ceremony and perception sometimes bleed into one another. Are you going to continually and ceremoniously be the devil's advocate while people genuinely perceive you to speak truth? The road to hell is paved with good intentions. -- Scot Mc Pherson [log in to unmask] http://linuxfromscratch.org/~scot http://beewiki.linuxfromscratch.org AIM: ScotLFS ICQ: 342949 MSN:[log in to unmask] :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::