Hello Barry & All, Although not in your league when talking scutellata I will try to make discussion. .> The point is that, if I understand it correctly, AM scutellata aka AHB have >been "outlawed" in the US jurisdiction for one reason, and one reason only >- and that is, simply, potentially hugely defensive behaviour around and near >their brood nests. I believe you might be able to keep AHB inside areas allready having AHB. Missouri law was patterned after another states law. Not sure which state. I had very little to do with the order. I was at the meeting in which the final vote was taken. I believe the defensive nature around the brood nest was of concern. A member of our assn had spent two weeks in Mexico working and filming AHB in the care of Dr. Orley Taylor. He said you could not walk outside the house without being stung. Orley kept all hives in nucs as full size hives were very defensive. Although pictures have been taken of beekeepers working scuts in shorts we ALL know things can get out of hand in a hurry with AHB. My close friend has been to South America 13 times to look at AHB. > I'd put it to you that natural gentle behaviour in scutellata is recessive. > I'd put it to you, further, that this recessive gene can be fixed by > selective (queen) breeding. Dr. Kerr proved your statement but why would you need to *tame a scut*? If you can accept that "pedigreed" > scutellata can be well behaved, if not gentle, would you not then > accept that other negative traits of scutellata can be "neutralised?" Sure! Dr. Kerr proved your point as far back as 1967. Abscounding, constant swarming and failure to secure enough honey to winter in Missouri are alone enough reason for me to work with a better strain without defensiveness. Many have got the wrong idea about Dr. Kerrs work. Many old beekeeping books are incorrect. Dr. Kerr took samples of many of Africas bees to South America to create a *Super Bee* . EVEN CAPENSIS! Not just the so named *Killer bee* scutellata. As I posted a couple years ago sadly Dr. Kerr will be remembered for the release of queens instead of his bee reasearch. >If that is possible, would it be further be possible to articulate a case to > "unban" scutellata in the continental US? Importation would fall on deaf ears as I have been a advocate of queen importation for years( NOT SCUTS!) for many reasons. Hines keeps AHB in Arizona (I believe) so maybe a strain of gentle AHB could be bred in Arizona. > As a personal example, my five breeder queens and their thriving > colonies are kept within 10 to 20m (say, 30 to 60ft) of my front door (I > regard them as extremely valuable). My family, friends, dogs, parrots, > and other bee-strange things and entities have never been stung by > these bees. Buzzed a few times, yes, but never stung. And that > includes days when I disturb the bees to steal a frame or two for > grafting larvae. Beekeepers who come around to inspect the breeder > queens - and whatever - invariably comment that the bees are > abnormally well behaved. I realize you have only got Scut and capnesis to work with and I commend you on your results! I on the other hand have a great many queens to choose from with the traits I am looking for allready in the U.S.. > Compared to wild scuts, they most certainly > are. But that's how they've >been bred - amongst other things, for more > gentle behaviour. How many generations did it take. Did you inbreed like Dr. Kerr did? What will the supercedure and open mated queens be like? The beekeeper who wants to order queens, and > who does, normally orders daughters from the "yellow" queen, > because her colour is outstandingly different from wild scutellata. Barry we have had this discussion before. Yellow IS the SCUT color. If your *wild scuts* are not yellow then they are mongrel or AHB. Quote pg. 39 of "Hive and Honey Bee (copy 1992)" Name Scutellata was given by Lepeletier(1836) because of the conspicous YELLOW scutellum. "A.m. scutellata is a small bee with scarace pilosity, variable pigmentation on the abdomen (one or more yellow bands) , mostly a BRIGHT YELLOW SCUTELLUM on the thorax and a charactoristic wing venation". As my friend Dee pointed out in a recent post the wing venation IS important to id AHB. On pg. 36 of the book is a picture ( figure 5) of AHB wing venation. >.According to That her bees are the least "well behaved" (of the five >breeder >queens) does not enter the equation. I suspect the reason is >simply that AM > capensis is a dark, if not black bee, and that capensis is the 99% > largest fear of any scutellata beekeeper. Couldn't you breed the bad genes from capensis? Dr. Kerr said it could be done! Maybe changing capensis would solve your bigger problem. > But I deviate - the fundamental question remains; viz., if beekeepers in > the continental US could accept the idea - and perhaps the fact of - a > gentle version of AM scutellata - would such a version of the alleged > "killer bee" be acceptable? Why would we want a gentle version? You say they do not produce a huge amount of honey. If indeed so, what kind of a pedigree would > esteemed beekeepers such as yourself require? In Texas they find AHB by kicking the box real hard. If the bees boil out they *most likely* are AHB. They never check for sure because if they boil out at a kick they still need requeening. What do your gentle version of scuts do when the hive is kicked real hard? Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri