>This sort of comment is unnecessary and insulting.

And what these guys say to me is not? Is Randy. Brian & Peter neonicotinoid
research scientists or are we all simply looking at the same research and
seeing a different point of view?

As with all internet discussions at some point we need to agree to disagree 
and move on or these guys need to prove THIER point of veiw. Bees are dying 
around the neonicotinoid pollinations.

I say again that I have seen absolutely no clear proof from Bayer, Ortho or
Union Carbide that the neonicotinoids will not harm bees. If I did I would
shut up.

> Nobody needs to take Bayer's word for it. Independent studies have found
> no link between neonics and massive die-offs.

I disagree as do many which have poured over the research!

Bayer has been forced to pay beekeepers 3 million dollars in one suit and
many others are pending.
You guys are beating a drum which does not represent what most beekeepers
around the world believe.
I have a life or would pull up research which does dispute the Bayer claims.

I am working 7 days a week!

Now 20 PPM of a poison might not be an issue for a human but what about a
small insect. Also a poison designed to kill all the other insects which
feed on the plant parts.

I can't let the constant posts of these guys saying beekeepers should simply
ignore the possible issues with the systemics go unchallenged. Twisting my
position by Randy was cute but will not work!

We all have the same published research to look at. Research on the
neonicotinoids is beyond Randy and his microscope and CCD yard. You guys
say not to worry and I say we need to worry. The national organization  "
The coalition against Bayer"says we need to worry.

BEE-L members in the end need to make up there own minds and keep an open
mind as research improves our knowledge of the products. Until then *IT
SEEMS* Brian, Randy and it seems Peter will continue to say nothing to worry
about with the neonicotinoids and others of us will *remain unconvinced.*

The constant pointing away from the neonicotinoids in a dozen other
directions Peter in my opinion hurts the discussion. All those things are
problems but unrelated to the issue which is what effect (both short term &
long term) placing a poison in our bees food supply has on our bees. The
same poison which kills around 20 similar insects which feed off the
substance.

 As Allen pointed out more research is needed ( and being demanded by the
EPA) to decide.



 >hey have uncovered widespread hive contamination by miticides, such as the
organophosphate coumaphos, often used illegally and in home made
concoctions. Here are excerpts from a report by Marie Chauzat,

So your saying the above is the number one killer of bees in the world
Peter to take a page from Brians post?

Maybe Marie can explain to beekeepers with all new comb which are seeing
problems about her hypothesis.

It seems Randy has ruled out her hypothesis judging from his last post and
has possibly found the cause of ccd like symptoms. I would actually love to
see a beekeeper solve the issues so we could give the 4.1 million in
borrowed funds back.

bob

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