In article <002d01c3b221$7871e1a0$163874d5@oemcomputer>, Christine Gray
<[log in to unmask]> writes
>Using 2 dummies means that the dummy next to the hive wall is pretty clear
>of bees, so can be hauled out without trouble.  Then the next dummy can be
>levered SIDEWAYS  to break the propolis, with no risk to bees at all.  Then
>it can be twisted slightly before being lifted, reducing risk of rubbing
>bees against the hive side. Then the first comb can be freed and twisted
>even more in the free space now created - problem over.

I probably understand you a bit better now. You may also get a lot more
propolis than we do. The use of the word 'jarring' led me to believe you
were, for some reason, giving the comb some kind of jolt or shock.

We rarely ever clean the propolis build up off the side bars, and in the
warmth of the hive this wax/propolis cocktail you get on the side bars
is relatively soft. In a BS box there is some space leftover when the
frames are new or clean, but little when the frames have been in use
over a period.

It is this build up that we use to allow us the space to extract the
first comb, by levering the bars over to one side (actually, that is not
strictly true, we usually lever between the first and second bars,
isolating the one at one side) compressing this wax/propolis, and
creating that quarter to half inch of free space that lets you get in
and get the job done. You only have to be vigilant for 'fat comb' where
the shape is such that they cannot come out cleanly, and pick another if
that is the case.

I would not pretend that we never kill bees, because it does happen, but
not to excess. The odd queen over the year probably does succumb to
mishandling, but not at first bar extraction. Usually it is the hired
help allowing a bar to slip from their grip at one end, swings down
against the wall of the hive, and if she has been on the lower outer end
of the side bar she cops it, but this is rare, and when it does
expletives flow copiously in the bee site.

We use only the one hive tool as well, and I don't see anything wrong
with what you have been doing.


>
>The second problem was always placing the upper box back gently enough that
>no bees got squashed.  I cannot handle a box delicately when it is 18 inches
>square and weighs 40 lbs.  The same box,  reduced to 30 lbs and with the
>weight nearer one side, can be put back with less of a thump.

For fear of antagonising some, as it has happened before when someone
praised colony strength in a picture but crushed bees were visible
between the boxes, a FEW bees does not really matter that much.  Get the
bees smoked down from the top of the bottom box, check the underside of
the upper box and give it a puff of smoke, and unless a cluster has
formed hanging there, get it back on. I put it on at one edge and slide
it into position, which tends to push stray bees out of the way. Having
a pretty good idea where the queen is helps prevent anxiety.

If all is well we do not look for her, except at first spring
examination, when all last years young queens get clipped and marked,
but as we are using a single box system in the most active part of the
season she is almost always in the bottom box. There is always one who
turns up in an odd place, having slipped past a deformed excluder wire
or something similar. Perhaps this aspect is the biggest single
difference between ourselves and the amateurs over here who come out to
see us. They are determined to see the queen at each visit as 'that is
they way things should be done', but cannot explain satisfactorily why.
That takes a lot of time, especially if she is a 'runner', and lots of
black bee queens are really good runners, and expert hiders.

As soon as you dispense with the need to find the queen examinations get
a whole heap faster, and accurate diagnosis of colony condition and
action needed, if any, to within practical percentages, is possible by
only examining say 6 bars (sometimes even less), from one side to just
past the centre of the nest. Then your disturbance can be minimal and
you are in and out in a very short time.
>
>Now, possibly I have been getting that first frame out the wrong way all
>this time.  Any suggestions?

No, when we had a unit of Nationals we always found them slower going
than Smiths or Langstroths as they were just a little bit slower to
work, and the bottom bee space created problems of its own. The internal
size is supposed to be the same as a Smith, but there are variants that
seem to cause tight frames and burr comb, plus you get nasty pedestal
comb too, which slows the whole operation down. In these cases perhaps
dummies have a role

Allen's suggestion about using a plastic in the outside position is
something I have done, and it works fine in some cases. Not an option in
BS though. I find that a flow or heavy feed coming on makes them draw
the second bar fat, leaving the plastic undrawn on its inner surface.
Then you have some fun if you decide that is the frame that you want to
get out. (I would try to lift them out as a pair if no other obvious
option was available) Possibly a black bee trait, as the NWC's do not do
this so much, and will draw almost anything.
--
Murray McGregor

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