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From:
allen dick <[log in to unmask]>
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Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology <[log in to unmask]>
Date:
Fri, 14 Mar 2003 12:38:27 -0700
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> > Additionally, the test was done with AHB which is naturally smaller
than EHB...

> The bee is small only due to its natural comb sizing.

I think that it has been clearly established by numerous worldwide
surveys by a number of very well-respected researchers that different
races of bees observed in the wild have differing average 'natural comb
sizing'.  There is natural variability in each race, so the size ranges
sometimes overlap.  Moreover, all bees, left to themselves will build
cells in a typical wild nest that range in size, and in shape.

Thus the concept of 'natural cell size' is an artificial one, and only
has meaning in the context of forcing bees to build on foundation.
Under such circumstances, obviously, the term, 'natural cell size',
becomes an oxy-moron since there is nothing natural about where or how
the bees are constrained to build, and they are not free to build their
natural comb.

> I have colonies of carniolan type bees right now that are on 4.8-4.9mm
cell sizing

4.8 - 4.9 mm is not in the range of sizes that carniolan bees will
naturally build, given any choice, from my understanding.  If 4.8 - 4.9
is in the range at all, it is at the extreme low end, or even an
outlier.  From all reports, that size is clearly 'unnatural' for
carniolans  -- and using foundation is not natural either.

>  Have suffered a 75% loss each year(with minor replacement).

Ouch!  Although it is interesting to see what bees can be forced to do
and still survive, there are much cheaper and more natural ways to deal
with the mites, as the Primorsky project and subsequent selection has
shown.  Survival approaching 100% and easy management is accomplished on
standard combs already in existance.  (Correct me if I'm wrong Charlie).
Little if any mite control is required in some regions, and this is
still early in the selection process..

>> I think there is definitely something to this and that enlarged cells
>> are a bad idea.  I saw that in the results of our foundation
>> experiment where Pierco beat out the larger cell size foundations in
>> first year production.

> Notice any difference in winter clusters and spring buildup?

I haven't really looked, but most hives -- regardless of the comb
base -- survive, and most build up, and most make honey.  We sure don't
lose 75%.  It stands to reason, though, that a cell size closer to the
middle of the range of sizes observed in wild EHB colonies -- 5.1 -5.4
mm.  would be better for most of that population -- for most purposes --
than cells at either end of the range.  Pierco is bang in the middle of
the range, so I would not be surprised to see a difference if we tried
to isolate one.

As to where in the range of possible sizes to standardize on cell size,
there are many factors to consider.  For varroa reduction, there does
seem to be some evidence that more constrictive cells are better.  For
pollinating red clover, or for trying to extract honey from cells,
perhaps the larger end of the range is favoured.  Whatever the case,
arguments can be made either way, and just like the Chev / Ford debate,
I doubt it will be resolved.  Most people will use whatever works for
them and suits their goals, or what they have at hand.

Although we may not have the same goals, or agree on how best to keep
bees, I know we are agreed that no experiment yet -- that we know
about -- resolves the question of how cell size works.

When will we get an answer on that?

Could BEE-L members design an experiment to prove what so far has eluded
explanation?

allen
http://www.honeybeeworld.com

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