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Subject:
From:
James Fischer <[log in to unmask]>
Reply To:
Date:
Sun, 15 Jul 2007 23:31:24 -0400
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Bob offered:

> The classic CCD symptoms are exactly like a pesticide problem!
Consider
> the way a hive collects pollen. If the hive needs pollen then say 10% 
> goes to collect pollen. *If* those OLDER  foragers do not return
(whatever
> reason) then another 10% goes out. The scenario is repeated as the
young
> larva need pollen until all you have left is a hive filled with sealed
> brood, larva , a few newly emerged bees and a queen.

I disagree. Firmly.

If the actual scenario were as you described, one would 
expect to find a hive that had run low on pollen, since 
pollen stores in the hive would be depleted significantly 
during the period where no foragers return, and successive
waves of foragers leave and never return.

To my knowledge, no one has ever reported that CCD-affected
hives were low on pollen or nectar.  As this would have been 
a very significant clue, it would have been noted and reported
by multiple beekeepers and investigators.  It hasn't been.
In fact, the hives are said to be well-stocked with stores.

Secondly, how could any pesticide kill 100% of bee foragers
quickly, and on first contact, and not be well-known to be 
so toxic to honey bees?  How could such a pesticide get
approved by the EPA?  If it were approved, how could it
be so suddenly adopted by so many growers?

Third, how could the same highly-toxic pesticide be used 
at so many locations at the same time within a local area? 
Bees always, always, always "hedge their bets", and forage 
on multiple sources at the same time, so it would be an 
amazing coincidence that the bees from any one hive, or 
group of hives, would only forage on blooms so poison 
to them.

Fourth, it would take several days for these successive
waves of foragers to make their fatal sorties.  (Foragers
would not return, a shortage of resources would have to
be noticed, bees would take some amount of time to 
"shift gears" to take up foraging, and so on.
What possible pesticide remains so toxic to kill bees at
first contact, with absolutely no bees returning to
the hive to die for days, maybe weeks?

And if you are going to trot out the speculation about a 
fungicide somehow working in combination with a pesticide
to make a more toxic "cocktail", you are going to have to
be the first one to explain the chemistry at work, as no
one has even come close to explaining the interaction,
or explaining any sort of reaction between the two.
(While one can mix sugar and salt, this does not result
in any sort of new condiment.)

The typical pesticide kill presents a "bell curve" of results,
varying with exposure.  Some bees are not exposed, and have no
symptoms.  Some are slightly exposed, and have "mild symptoms".  
Some are more exposed, and have acute symptoms.  Some die
right off the bat.

So, where's the bell curve typically associated with exposure 
to the pesticide?  I don't see one, and neither has anyone else.

> In Florida a beekeeper saw his hives depopulated as above 
> and found all his bees either dead or dying in an area around 
> 300 feet from his yard.

This is the first I've heard of this story.
Were samples collected?
These dead/dying bees would be very good things to toss into
liquid nitrogen and save for some lab work.

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