Hi Allen,
 
AD>> You can feed you bees pure whole blood and run the nitrogen tests off
  >> the scale, but you will end up with nothing.
 
AD>Are you referring to nitrogen analysis in the bees or in the feed? I'm
  >thinking that one would just assay a bee sample in the fall, say, to
  >decide if a supplement is required.
 
Cheeper to look at the label on the feed.<G> I suspect the real analysis
needed would not be the nitrogen in the feed or bee but in any case it
would be impossible to correct any problems in the bees then living and
a new cycle of bees would need to be reared with the corrected diet to
make any difference in the hive.
 
AD><snip>
  >> Here in central California an average field hive will consume 1# to 2#
  >> of protein extenders a week and rear normal brood, but if they run out
  >> all is set back to day one,
 
AD>What exactly happens here?  Is it that there is no protein for the
  >emerging bees to eat, or just that brood rearing ceases?  Is serious harm
  >done if they run out of supplement?  I notice mosts references say
  >something like what you said here, but I need it spelled out for me :)
 
What happens is the "double whammy", as soon as the buggers run out of
protein they eat the brood so you have a double set back, one the lack
of new brood, the other the loss of a part of the old brood. The reason
for this is the fact that bees can not store these diets in the comb for
later use in any large amounts as they do with pollen so when the diet
runs out brood rearing stops. We don't really have a pollen substitute,
but only a diet. In the bee hive the pollen is not really the bee food,
the bees must work it or ferment it into bee bread or bee food, they
then liquefy it for use as needed. You can see that after they do this a
liquid film on the cells they are feeding from, as all bee food must be
a liquid as they have no way of handling solids that can not be
liquefied.
 
AD>> so as they consume the protein in ever grater amounts it is necessary to
  >> tend them more often with more protein and of course they will also need
  >> syrup.
 
AD>Hmmm.  I guess I'd better get out there tomorrow.
 
AD>When can I quit giving them patties?  Do I just put them on til the bees
  >refuse to eat them (seems wasteful)?  Or will they eat it from time to
  >time right thru the spring if I leave it on?
 
Depends on what you want to do, if you want lots of early young bees for
increase then you continue to feed until mother nature really takes over
the job. If all you want is a core of young bees that will better take
advantage of early natural food supplies by being able to feed bee
grubs you can quit at any time.
 
As for the total consumption of the patties late in the season, I have
seen it go both ways, that is the junk would stay in the hive forever.
I never had that problem and suspect it depends on how much sugar you
put in the patties, and for certain use only HFC if you have it as it
makes a much better and easier to handle patties. I am sure that also
if no protein is available when you start the diet then the bees will
continue to consume it after natural protein starts, a darn good thing
if you first source of pollen is poor bee food.
 
In feed lot beekeeping the biggest error is not starting early enough as
TIME is the most critical ingredient. No amount of extra feed can make
up for time and only adds to the cost of rearing bees. It is also well
to remember that without young queens all you will do is make your
swarming problems come earlier, but they will bee healthier and bigger
with a worn out queen.
 
Its well to point out that the attraction in bee diets is the sugar. You
can regulate to some extent the consumption of the protein part of the
diet by increasing of decreasing the amount of sugar. The main
ingredient in all the diets I have used or tested that worked was yeast.
 
Pollen can be added, but it is a good way to add someone else's bee
health problems. Most beekeepers would not in a 100 years feed their
neighbors honey to their bee's but for a reason I have never understood
they will feed his pollen without question. If you have never had
Chalk Brood a good way to get it or expand it is to feed pollen.
 
No amount of soy flower is beneficial to bees as a bee food, forget what
others are doing or saying. It would be better to add a food grade
cellulose to reduce protein if necessary, but with yeasts or
fermentation byproducts it may not be necessary. If protein ingredients
other then yeasts are used then they will need to be fermented and will
tend to dry out in the hives and get moldy if not used in a few days.
Most beekeepers who report problems with the bees not using their diets
are not using food the bees can use and bees will leave them as soon as
natural food starts coming in.
 
A good bee diet will be consumed any time it is placed in the beehive
no matter what is going on outside the hive, all others are no more then
supplements.
 
One last point, when I got into this I looked at what others were doing
in the insectary and that's what I would do today if I was interested. I
did find that all had one magic ingredient that was never listed and
only reveled to people they trusted. This was universal from
California to Florida in the insectary business. I can not reveal the
secret here as it would violate the trust others have put in me, but I
can say that it is the same magic ingredient that the first astronauts
hyped when they made the first trip to the moon, and is found in TANG.
None could give a scientific reason for adding this, but all did.. I
must admit that I used it also at times and also some electrolytes that
you can find at the bigger feed stores. No one knows for sure if these
trace minerals and vitamins are necessary, but I can not report any harm
or gain from using them and know others who know much more then I that
would not make up any insect diet without them.
 
LAST point, I have seen and heard it all, and if what others are doing
works for them I never would suggest they change as each of us operates
in his or her's own vacuum anyway. I have spent 1000's of hours watching
my bees gather different products that did nothing for them or me, and
wish that a 100% liquid protein diet for bees was here as that would
be ideal, but maybe another generation will take up the challenge.
 
                            ttul Andy-
 
 
 
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