>
> Hello Bill & All,


 Bill says "no positive link"

 The CCD team found in the few samples they took up to 17 pesticides/sample
 with five per sample the average. 43 different pesticides were identified.
 At least 14 were systemic and seventeen different pesticides were found in
 pollen.

 The amounts are higher than the chemical company says they would be.

 Some of these sample bees had picked up the amounts in less than six weeks.


> did discuss the articles when they appeared long ago. (on BEE-L)

 You guys keep discussing while some of us are confronting those we think
are
 responsible for poisoning our bees! Discussing is not solving what many of
 us consider a growing problem.

>appeared long ago?

 The whole CCD issue is not two years old yet! In its infancy! The ball is
rolling and beekeepers are going to learn things about keeping bees alive,
hopefully what other than normal causes is killing our bees and beekeeping
as a whole should benefit from ongoing research. The CCD issue and the
number of bees dying largely depends on who you are talking to.
I continue to push for solutions for our problems as I know the beekeeping
industry could NEVER afford to buy the research we are getting. My contacts
report 4-5 areas are of main concern. Control of two of those areas has
helped many beekeepers keep their bees alive last season. Those were mite
and nosema control.

Those having trouble I have spoke with are trying to control nosema with
other than fumidil B. and in most cases has not worked.

Three of the methods being used are thymol in syrup, honey B healthy and
clorox in syrup. The honey B healthy crowd says the product does a better
job on nosema than fumidil B but provide no test results. I know Randy is
doing some testing and believe he has found the thymol in syrup to not
control nosema and although some beekeepers use bleach in syrup the reason
is not to control nosema. Does the list know of any testing which would
verify the claims Honey B healthy controls nosema better than fumidil B (or
even has an effect on nosema?)


>      "Imidacloprid was registered on the basis of the Bayer
>> research *you posted* which has largely been proven inaccurate now by the
>> CCD team"

> I hate the constant repeating of things I have said before on BEE_L but
> thanks to the CCD working group we now have found 14 systemic pesticides
> in
> dead hives. Maybe not yet a smoking gun but still a problem for the
> chemical
> maker. I will explain why its a problem. Also a very different problem
> than
> with other pesticide kills. With past pesticide kills (not systemic) the
> beekeeper had to sue the applicator. With systemic you sue the maker.

>       Question- "How has the CCD team proved the data inaccurate?

By doing the testing of dead bees and proving that systemic pesticides are
 being found in dead bees. Further testing will happen with the new research
 dollars further building the beekeepers case.  Remember Bill the first
 systemic Bayer research (which registered imidacloprid) described a much
 different scenario concerning bees than the CCD team has discovered.

 Only my
 opinion but the early research will become problematic for the company as a
 higher number of bees from dead outs are found to contain LD50 levels of
 their systemic insecticide.

> hear from them."( CCD team)

 I think the CCD team wants little to do with internet discussion lists.

 What purpose would it serve getting involved in an internet discussion? The
 CCD team talks to each other , the beekeepers involved ( which talk to me)
 and then publish every so often updates.

 Kim said around three thousand people attended the CCD meeting ( BC Feb.
 2008) he covered. Almost all were PhD's.
 By comparison twice the number of people which attended the joint meeting
of
 the ABF & AHPA.
 The number of people and the level of their expertise looking into CCD  has
the chemical companies concerned i will assure you.


>> I know the EPA would want the proven inaccurate Bayer data so they can do
>> something about it.

 We place little faith in the EPA resolving the issue. All you have to do is
 take a ride down memory lane and you will see the EPA has not been of much
 help in years gone past in our pesticide fights.


 Both national organizations feel ( as I do) that talks with the chemical
 companies are the first step. I have spoke with their reps myself. At first
 they would not return my calls but we have seen a small change
 which is encouraging. In my opinion it has came about because public
opinion
 is clearly on the beekeepers side. A large sum of money is moving in the
direction of the problem . Which is never a good thing if there is even the
remote chance your product is causing  some of the bee die -offs. Also we
are slowly getting the proof  *some* bee kills are related to their systemic
products.


 bob


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