On Tue, 6 Feb 2007 23:08:14 -0500, Eric Brown <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

 If we ignore any third
>options, overlook the lack of integrity of your recommended alternative,
>and make the entire question a simple yes-no referendum on the conventional
>system, then you'd have a case.  So before we get too distracted with the
>evils of our current system, I want to be clear what I'm saying: one, there
>are other options besides conventional commodity honey that are at least as
>viable as $20-$40/lb honey from the far reaches of civilization; and two,
>$20-$40/lb honey is in no way remotely "sustainable".
>

Really the guy is turning business away what's not sustainable about his operation? Sounds more 
stable then most honey for sale operations I know of....

So I'm waiting .......you were being clear .........what then are the options you speak of ? Nothing in 
your post alluded to any options.........


>>So I gather you think this guy is ripping people off and making a fortune
>to boot?
>
>Seems exceedingly obvious to me that the guy is ripping people off.  I'm
>sure you agree, at least implicitly, because I'm sure you don't buy $20/lb
>green beans, $40/gallon milk, and $60/lb pork, or do you?
>


What is obvious from a cornfield in Iowa is a different reality in NYC. Walk around NYC and see 
how much real food you find for cheap. 

Before you start ripping lawyers perhaps you should poll Bee-L ands see how many beekeeps are 
lawyers. Your generalization on lawyers is kind of juvenile as many are good people and work with 
all walks of life and for different causes. So I just don't buy your screed that the guy has no ethics 
because he is a lawyer. 

>>Maybe you like the Walmartization of the organic industry better.......
>
>Better than what?  Than the Starbucksization?  Not much of a choice.
>

If you knew much about organic food production in the USA you would know that Walmart is the 
largest seller of organic food and has promised to sell organic at pennies above the other non-
organic slop they peddle. Many, many people feel that their push to keep the cost of organic at 
par with conventional will devalue the organic industry as large corporations start to work the 
USDA standards and look for, or create with lobbyists loopholes. Please note that these loopholes 
do not portray the organic ethic embraced by small to medium sized organic growers/producers.  
So who is ripping off whom? Walmart with their psuedo-organic, lets ride the latest marketing 
wave or some guy in Hawai who takes care of his employees, produces an organic varietal 
creamed honey which is hard to find as even a conventional product? 

>>Drawing my thoughts from Micheal Pollans new book the Omnivores Dilema
>
>I read it, too.  A farmers' market customer loaned it to me.  A little long-
>winded, but good stuff, and an entertaining read.  You're fundamentally
>distorting Pollan's argument, though, if you make it out to be an argument
>for extravagant consumerism among consumers isolated from the sources of
>their food.  In fact, the book was largely about the shallowness of "USDA
>Organic" and other pastoral marketing gimmicks.  It was about connecting
>with the source, which is practically the opposite of paying $40/lb in New
>York City in order to feel "safe" about eating honey in consumeristic
>oblivion.

One of the central messages in the Ominvores Dilema is that the cost of food is held artificially 
low and to maintian that low price the quality has gone down (or the amount of processed food 
has gone up). Case in point is honey,  Has the average retail price of honey changed that much in 
the last 25 years? Not really. How about the quality ? One could argue its gone down considerably 
as the price of honey has stayed flat and foriegn honey flooded in. 

So small beekeeps that produce a raw or organic honey of high quality should do what? I guess 
your alleged option might clear that up?  Obviously selling it cheap as you apperently imply.... 
would be stupid as our country is awash in bogus honey. 

You comments about making a living;  Eric when or if you move up beyond your sideline operation 
and pay your bills 365 days a year with your bees maybe we can discuss some of the economics of 
producing, packaging and marketing honey. Your logic in your post just does not show any 
business acumen or even a cursory understanding of the issues.  
 
What truly baffles me about your disdain for pricey honey is how much the honey/bee industry has 
struggled in the past 2 decades.  If we all are getting a fair price then why has the number of 
beekeepers in the last 15 years dropped like a rock ? 

I'm interested to hear your ideas Eric on how to make a  FULL TIME living from beekeeping other 
then going commercial? I'm particularily interested in your production and pricing strategy. 

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