Maybe its just me since no one else seems to get this interpretation,
but could he have meant something like "if the baby continues nursing, your
breasts will be flabby and unappealing?" The inner qualities that give
perky breasts their shape (fat cells, etc.) would be stripped? Maybe I've
just had a couple too many moms ask this question lately (they didn't say
"stripped")?
Lora L. Horn B.Sc.,
Marriage and Family Therapy Student
LC under construction
but most of all, MOM
(UGH! he's going to be three on Thursday!)
__________________________________
"What a distressing contrast there is between the radiant intelligence of
the child and the feeble mentality of the average adult."
-S. Freud
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Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 20:14:02 -0400
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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Sender: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Becky Flora <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: "Breasts, Bottles, and Babies"
Cindy,
"Breasts, Bottles, and Babies" was written by Valerie Fildes. I used this
reference in a paper I recently wrote called, "A History of Wet Nursing". I
was able to find it in my a local College of Medicine medical library. It's
a pretty thick book, so that price doesn't sound *all* that bad.
Becky Flora, IBCLC
P.S. Just want you to know that I frequently refer mothers to your site for
information. I am currently working as the LC for a pediatric website on
their breastfeeding forum. Thanks for the readily available information!
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Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 19:37:09 -0500
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Kathy Dettwyler <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: chemo
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Hey guys, you're all giving me the heebie-jeebies with your posts about
chemo. Remember, I'm gonna walk in that room Friday morning (8 am CDT) and
ask them to inject me with these toxins! :)
Should also point out that on the breast cancer email list (*of course*
there's a list for that too!!), there are two women who had chemotherapy
*while they were pregnant*, and they and their kids are fine. Don't ask me
how THAT works, but if pregnant women can TAKE chemo, then surely it won't
hurt a lactating woman to administer it.
This is not to be construed as medical advice.
Kathy Dettwyler, "chemo virgin" for five more days
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Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 19:42:33 -0500
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Kathy Dettwyler <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: pacifiers
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I think the main reason most parents in the US give their infants pacifiers
is that they see children all the time with pacifiers -- they think this is
normal. From observations of parent-child interaction in the US, both in
person and from TV and movies, this is what one concludes:
1) babies are to be carried in plastic buckets
2) babies are to have pacifiers in their mouths at all times except when
they are being fed
3) babies are fed with formula in a bottle
4) babies need their own special room, with a crib and cutesy wallpaper and
wall hangings and mobils
5) babies need baby monitors so mother and father can hear baby from the
other room
6) babies are put down in their cribs wide awake, mother says "night night"
and turns out the light, and baby goes to sleep
y'all can add more, but you get my drift
parents give babies pacifiers because that's how babies live in the US
parents give babies formula in bottles because that's how babies are fed in
the US
parents carry babies in plastic buckets, because that's mostly what you see
in the US
Kathy D.
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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 11:21:06 +1000
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Karleen Gribble <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Quantum program replayed
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Joy posted about a good Quantum story. For those in Australia who don't
know Quantum is actually replayed on Mondays at 1230 pm. I'm going to tape
it and have a look at it myself.
Karleen
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Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 21:22:41 -0500
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Johanna Berger <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Stripping Breast!
" Just where do some of the people go to medical school?"
As my dh says, "what do you call the person who graduates last in med
school? Doctor."
Johanna Berger, LSW
Breastfeeding Counselor
Bala Cynwyd, PA
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Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 21:11:39 -0400
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Patrica Young <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: LACTNET Digest - 19 Oct 1999 to 20 Oct 1999 - Special
issue(#199...
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Thanks for the kind comment, Sincerely, Pat in SNJ
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Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 21:31:48 -0400
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Patrica Young <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: what we see
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Kathy, you would be encouraged to know that I see more and more inner city
moms using soft baby carriers, like front packs, not slings yet, but its a
good start. I've also noticed it's a lot of Mexican moms who are doing
this, they know they should carry baby and the soft carriers are "American"
after all :-) Sincerely, Pat in SNJ
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Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 21:37:01 EDT
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Fragmin
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Hello everyone,
I am looking for the safety information about breastfeeding while taking
Fragmin. The patient has antiphospholipid syndrome and it is controlled by
Fragmin. Any help will be of benefit. I am also looking for a research
article describing the effectiveness of breast shells for inverted nipple, I
have a patient who wants to read the actual studies. I have tried to find
them via archives but have not had good results in finding them.
Thank You
Toni Myers RN IBCLC
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Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 22:27:15 -0400
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: ifab <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: cosleeping response
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there is a good article in the Sunday Boston Globe about the poor science
used in the cosleeping study published in early October with the
resulting recommendation not to co sleep. It was written by a local
pedi. who seems very "with it" :-) Check it out, it is too long for me
to retype here.
Ilene Fabisch, IBCLC
Brockton, MA
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Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 22:09:39 EDT
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From: "Annette Garriott-Parks, R.D.,C.D." <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: off mailing list
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please discontinue me from your mailing list.
thank you
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Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 22:23:47 -0500
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Cathy Liles <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Pacifiers
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We seem to forget that pacifiers or dummies or sugar tits are substitutes
for the REAL thing- the breast. When a mother is accused of letting her baby
use the breast as a pacifier that is an accusation that baby is using the
intended object for the purpose for which it was intended rather than a
substitute- DUH... Cathy
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Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 23:15:01 EDT
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Julie Wood <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Where Do We Go to Medical School?
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Regarding breast stripping and "where do these people go to medical school?"
.....
I don't know what school the breast stripping doc attended, but I can attest
that nobody taught me about breast stripping in med school. In fact they
didn't teach me ANYTHING about breastfeeding. Zero. I remember about one
day of breastfeeding anatomy.
This is where the problem begins and this is a perfect example. I was self
taught by my 2 special personal trainers and some extra special LC's during
my residency.
Not that I have a solution yet--maybe adding breastfeeding questions to
boards so breastfeeding will have to be taught and studied (as the ob's have
wisely done for their specialty boards)?
Best regards,
Julie Wood, MD IBCLC
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Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 20:33:59 PDT
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Denise Punger <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: bf in medical school
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This is what I remember about the breastfeeding curriculum in medical school
and residency...
I don't recall any lectures in the first two years of basic sciences.. My
husband remembers having 2 lectures where he went to school. He says this is
when he learned an association between bf and higher IQ. My junior
rotations included 6 weeks of peds and OB each.Senior electives included a
month each of OB, Newborn nursery,NICU,PICU(in central Florida) and Family
medicine with OB(at a different central Florida Hospital). My junior OB
experience was at 3 different hospitals. I remember having the impression if
a mother chose to breastfeed, she was making a decision that interfered with
our interventions,ie... birth control... No one was discharged without birth
control. During my senior year I recall some moms using the pump and seeing
a freezer filled with breast milk. On rounds I do remember the neonatologist
asking us if the milk of premature mothers is well suited for premature
infants. I don't remember the answer. I do remember doing alot of
calculations on calories/ounce of infant formula to give to preemies based
on weight. Also one of the hospitals prescribed parlodil, the other said
their was not any studies to show that it helped dry up milk quicker.I
remember discharging a lot of mothers with instructions to wear tight
bras(to dry up the milk) for a week.
My residency in Family Medicine was done at the same school. I don't recall
a lot of breastfeeding talks,but our family medicine dept. did promote a
more family oriented birth experience compared to the OB dept.The two
departments quarrelled a lot about intervention in labor. My husband
remembers a well liked family practice attending pumping milk. I did a
prenatal rotation in a rural clinic, I recall a poster listing benefits of
breastfeeding. On that rotation I began to encourage women to breastfeed.
The pediatric residents all had really cool overnight bags with the teddy
bear logo on it. The peds residents were a very fertile group, but I don't
recall any of them talking about breastfeeding their baby.
And I do remember going to two lectures on which formula to use.Same
lecture,but two different years.
Denise Punger MD
Medical College Of Georgia class of 93-who also remembers being taught that
much of what we teach now will be proven wrong by future research
http://doctor.medscape.com/denisepungermd
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Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 20:46:07 PDT
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Denise Punger <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: advertising in medical school
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more medical school memories....
The anti-tobacco organization had a quick and easy idea to oppose tobacco
advertising in magazines. The group saved the subscription renewal postcard
from any magazine that advertised cigarettes. On them the group wrote "we
enjoy your magazine, but please stop advertising tobacco products". These
postcards did not need a stamp. the postage would be paid by the magazine
company. Most magazines have about 4-6 cards in it. So for every person that
mailed all the cards from one magazine, the company would have to pay about
a dollar in postage without getting the subscription ordered.
This idea should work well with magazines advertising formula to the
consumer.
I noticed Sesame Street Parents magazine had a formula advertisment in it
this month. The next page was an article on how to plan ahead for your trip
to disney.
Denise Punger MD
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Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 22:57:38 -0500
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: "Denny Rice, RN IBCLC, Dallas TX" <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: @Home Network Member
Subject: chemo
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The only problem I can see for an oncology nurse who is
pregnant/breastfeeding, would not come from chemo, but from those
implanted "seeds" or "rods" or the current equivelent. During nursing
school, fertile women who might be pregnant weren't allowed anywhere
near the patients who had these. The ones I remember were treatments
for ovarian or other "female" cancers. I'm probably just showing my age
here, they may not even use these things anymore.
--
Denny Rice, RN, IBCLC
Dallas Texas USA
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Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 23:05:09 -0500
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: "Denny Rice, RN IBCLC, Dallas TX" <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: @Home Network Member
Subject: good week
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Hi all, just wanted to share the nice week I had with you.
A pedi called me requesting a pump for his wife, no problems, just for
occ. relief bottles, and another pedi called and asked me to come for
lunch and give an inservice to the entire staff so they could better
help their bfing patients! This same doc was just asked to chair a
commitee to implement changes to improve bf at the hosp, which is way
behind in this area.
It was a good week for breastfeeding here!
--
Denny Rice, RN, IBCLC
Dallas Texas USA
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Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 23:12:05 -0500
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Laura Wright <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Breast Binders etc...(long)
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Hello All!
I need your help for a personal dilemma.
When I see women with their breasts bond, I cringe, and advise them to
take the binder off.
For some reason, which I can not document, I believe this practice of
binding breasts:
1) Is dangerous to breast tissue, and can cause permanent damage.
2) May set the woman up for Mastitis/Abscess.
3) Is unnecessary.....(more on this later)
4) May make a later decision (post discharge) to breastfeed obsolete.
Like when at 3 weeks baby has consistently had problems with all ABM
tried.
However, I have been discussing with a colleague. the fact that a very
breastfeeding friendly hospital in my area has a POLICY that all women
deciding not to breastfeed must be bound.
Does anyone else have strong feelings against breast binding?
Can you tell me why you feel the way you do?
Also.....
If we caution women to get baby to breast as soon after delivery as
possible.... We caution women to feed on demand and not delay
feedings.... We encourage pumping moms to maintain as much physical
contact as possible, and no to be overly alarmed when they see a
reduction in supply....
Why do we assume an unstimulated, unemptied breast will automatically
become engorged?
I know we have discussed making breastfeeding seem "too easy"...
but lately, I have been feeling like we are making breastfeeding "too
difficult". If we are constantly warning about all the negative things
that can happen, what differentiates us from the "gloom and doom"
information distributed by the ABM manufacturers?
I am struggling to continue with my practice of explaining the basic
latch and positioning, discussing how breastfeeding is the Normal,
Natural way to feed a baby, and giving my number in case any questions
come up.
I could plant that first seed, "Even the Breastfeeding woman said it
would be hard".... by saying, if you have a problem, call me.
I prefer to say, if you have any questions, or feel like something is
not right....
Of course, if the woman has had difficulties in the past, we discuss
that in more detail.....
Any comments or suggestions?
Laura Wright
Jackson, MS
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Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 23:35:40 -0500
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
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From: Laura Wright <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Clarification re: Breast Binding
In-Reply-To: Automatic digest processor <[log in to unmask]>'s
message of Tue, 19 Oct 1999 00:04:26 -0400
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Oops!
Can you believe I left anything out of that LONG post?
Well, I did. My colleague is looking for documentation to support the
hospital's policy....which was the #1 suggestion in the archives....
But surely there must be research to document our dislike as well...
There was an e-mail/website address given for a woman at University of
Louisianna in the archives, but I could not access that location.
Does anyone have her current contact info? (sorry, can't cut and
paste..and didn't write her name down)
TIA
Laura
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Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 21:40:22 -0700
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Nancy Ferland <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Family Portraiture
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Dear List,
I recently received a call from a mother who wished to have a portrait taken of herself nursing her 8 month old baby.
She would be fully clothed, no breast showing, etc. The mall based portrait studio (not sure if I can say the name) refused
to take the picture because their actual written policy states that "breastfeeding portraits do not fall within the category
of family portraiture"! They would however take a nude photo of a pregnant mother with her arms placed strategically,
or even of a naked baby, but absolutely no breastfeeding pictures. The mother was shocked to say the least and so was I!
My question is: does this mom have any legal recourse or is this just one more blatant display of stupidity? I'd be curious
to hear if anyone else has had a similar experience. I wish there were "breastfeeding un-friendly" stickers to place in this
store's window!
Nancy Ferland, BS, IBCLC
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Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 23:56:45 -0500
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From: Laura Wright <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Kathy Swift
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Looking for any way of contacting Kathy Swift, or obtaining her research
regarding breast binding.
Laura Wright
Jackson, MS
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Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 22:05:52 -0700
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From: don hagreen <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: recurrent plugged ducts
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Colleagues,
Can anyone offer me some assistance? I am dealing with a client who, in =
the past 6 weeks has had a plugged duct every 2 days in the same breast =
and same location. She states this breast does not empty as well as =
the other one. She also has a little red dot on the nipple that is =
incredibly painful and keeps recurring. Her 7 month old baby feeds =
exactly the same on both breasts. She finds it gets worse if she is =
really full. She had been giving the baby a supplement of expressed =
breast milk or formula at the last feed at night. The baby feeds 3 - 4 =
times during the day and twice at night. The longest the baby goes =
between feeds is from 10 PM to 3AM, otherwise the baby usually feeds on =
demand. Baby has been on solids for past 2 months. She has a familial =
tendency towards developing anemia. She describes herself as having =
"weak shoulders and a tense upper back". Her bra is loose and =
comfortable. Putting a warm cloth on the breast prior to feeds helps. =
She uses breast compression with feeds with good effect and has managed, =
so far, to keep the plugged duct from developing into a mastitis. =20
I suggested she see her physician to determine if she has anemia or some =
other breast condition that is restricting the drainage of that breast. =
I also suggested she limit her saturated fat intake and take lecithin =
daily (as per Ruth Lawrence). Because she waits until she develops a =
plugged duct to massage breasts and use breast compression with all =
feeds, to ensure adequate breast drainage. She states the baby will not =
take the breast while being held in any position than the cradle hold.=20
Does anyone have any other suggestions or any ideas what the "red dot" =
is??
TIA!!
Jeanne Hagreen, RN, BSN,. IBCLC
Prince George, BC, CANADA
"One LC in the wilderness"
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Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 22:14:40 -0700
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: don hagreen <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: severe mastitis with previous pregnancy
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Colleagues,
After many months of "lurking", this is the second request to you in the =
same day. Can anyone offer any suggestions or advice?
I have a client who is 6 months pregnant with her second child. Six =
weeks after the delivery of her first baby, she developed a severe =
mastitis that required prolonged treatment with intravenous antibiotics. =
Eventually, she breastfed the baby exclusively on the opposite breast. =
The baby thrived and was breastfed for a year.
Since her mastitis, the affected breast has become quite lumpy to feel =
and hasn't grown as much as the unaffected breast with this pregnancy. =
She is terrified of breastfeeding the baby she is expecting in three =
months on the breast she developed the mastitis in. =20
Any suggestions? My first thought is to give her support and =
encouragement to feed exclusively on the unaffected breast, but does =
anyone know what her odds are of developing mastitis in the same breast =
if she chooses to use it again. If she doesn't feed the baby with it, =
will she develop mastitis when her breasts become more full after =
initiating lactation?
Suggestions?? Comments??
TIA!
Jeanne Hagreen, RN, BSN, IBCLC
Prince George, BC, CANADA
"One LC in the wilderness"
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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 14:58:25 +1000
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
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From: Querida David <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: good news week
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This from Australia during the week....
I saw the TODAY show this morning, they had a segment from BBC(?) about
>attachment parenting. Showing a group of parents who believe in sharing
the
>family bed and how it can work, increasing the children's self esteem,
>independence, security, etc. They also spoke with William Sears - he is
>great - explaining some of the reasons why it works. They also mentioned
>that breastfeeding was a part of attachment parenting, helping with the
>relationship, health of the child, etc. The reporter ask one mum who was
>breastfeeding her 5 yr old "how does a five year old ask for a feed?" the
>mum replied "with her voice, asking for mummy's milk". It was a lovely
>segment, very positive with some relevant questions from the "sceptics" -
>how can attachment produce an independent child? etc - which were answered
>very well.
>
>One comment (I think it was from Wil Sears) was that "this is the way we
>would bring up our children if we didn't have all the books telling us
other
>things" - how true.
>
>All in all, a wonderful, positive look at families and breastfeeding, I
hope
>lots of parents and parents-to-be saw it too.
Querida David IBCLC
GL, NT Correspondence Group
Sub Editor Newsletter. Qual 1991
Family: Steve, Kieran(14), Aaron(13), Rhys(10), Caitlyn(8)
Alyangula. NT. Australia
[log in to unmask]
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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 16:17:56 +1000
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
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From: Karleen Gribble <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: SMH article "Who's driving the drinks trolley'
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I heard over the weekend of an article published in the Sydney Morning
Herald that attacks the notion of women being made guilty for not
breastfeeding. I've been searching the paper's site but haven't found it
because I don't have the exact date (it was publishedin the last month) and
I don't want to pay for a search. Did anyone happen to read it and have the
date of the paper. If I can find it I'll post the web address to the list.
TIA
Karleen Gribble
Australia
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Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 06:20:08 -0400
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
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From: Patrica Young <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: disturbing editorial
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I wish someone who is more eloquent than I, would read and address the
following editorial: "Shedding stigma and some pain with wider choices in
childbirth" by Jane Eisner on the OP Ed page of The Philadelphia Inquirer
on Sunday, Oct. 24, 1999. It can be read at
<http://home.phillynews.com/inquirer/opinion/> It is so discouraging to
read this woman say that her 3rd birth, med free, was an "absolutely
empowering experience" and then go on to advocate use of "sophisticated
drugs to control pain." Bah. Sincerely, Pat in SNJ
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Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 06:34:35 -0400
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Patrica Young <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: advertising in magazines
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I absolutely HATE those cards in magazines and I LOVE your subversive idea
of returning them with -no smoking or no formula messages, as appropriate
:-) Sincerely, Pat in SNJ
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Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 06:38:56 -0400
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
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From: Patrica Young <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: severe mastitis with previous pregnancy
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Good exam by an excellent breast surgeon who is familar with the
pregnant/lactating breast, ultra sound, mammogram. Sounds like a possible
tragedy in the making. I'd rather go to the trouble and expense of
checking carefully than regretting not suggesting it later! Sincerely, Pat
in SNJ
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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 07:39:37 EDT
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
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From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Pacifiers
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Kathy says,
<< parents give babies pacifiers because that's how babies live in the US >>
The bottom line is that parents get addicted to pacifiers long before the
babies do. Most new parents start out trying to use them judiciously -- when
the baby is crying a lot, or the mother is "nursed out." (That lasts about
three days, when someone says to her, "You mean you are nursing that baby
AGAIN??") Then they begin to feed the baby -- and if he is fussy after the
feed, they put the pacifier in. Then they begin popping the pacifier in
immediately after the feed to PREVENT fussiness -- and then to lengthen the
time between the feeds, because "everyone knows", especially Ezzo
afficianados, that babies aren't really hungry, and we don't want to
breastfeed any more than every 3 hours, and we certainly don't want to use
mom as a pacifier, and we don't want to disturb other adults/people/children
w/ a crying baby, and ..... why then it is just easier to pin the pacifier on
it's cute little ribbon to baby's clothes so it doesn't get lost...and then
we can't bear to see baby without the colorful little whatever it is called
stuffed in his mouth.
I've had way to many moms come over to pick up a pump try to give the baby a
pacifier when he's perfectly content....
Who is addicted? Hmmmmm
Jan Barger, RN, MA, IBCLC
Wheaton, IL
www.bsccenter.org
"Further up and further in." -- C.S. Lewis
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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 08:12:32 -0400
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
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From: "Melissa V. Kirsch" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: disturbing editorial
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Saw it too, Pat, but considering Eisner's last piece of breastfeeding
(the one to which many Lactnetters replied) I figured this one wasn't as
bad. A few years ago, I had a response published to an editorial of hers
that criticized Meredith Vierra for being "selfish" by not weaning her
18-month year old. My letter was so forceful, I even got a phone call
from Eisner (I missed it). She's has some deep-seated
conflicts...breastfeeds and natural childbirth but then doesn't support
those things.
Melissa Vance
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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 08:19:07 EDT
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Socorro Caanen <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: update on Kathy Wambier
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Hi All!
Recently our Kathy Wambier posted something about her having brain surgery
due to brain tumors. Well, here is an update.
And as Kathy herself had posted before, I am sure she would enjoy hearing
from you.
warmLLLy
Socorro Caanen
Dear Socorro, I saw Kathy today. She had been out of Intensive Care for
about 2 hours and was now on the med/ surg floor. She came through the
surgery MUCH better than expected, the two large malignant tumors popped out
fairly easily, there was no bleeding and she seems as right as rain.
Unbelievable!!! Her appetite is great and she is full of talk. Whew!!
Please pass theis message on to all . Love, Susan Aldana
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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 08:19:08 -0400
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
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From: Kathleen Bruce <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Lactnet rules/welcome
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Anytime anyone has a question about the working of the listserv LACTNET,
please fel free to consult the long welcome message that you received and
printed out when you joined.
If you need a copy, send email to
[log in to unmask]
reading
Get Lactnet Welcome
You can always get another copy by doing this, and everything is stated
right there.
Kathleen
Kathleen B. Bruce, BSN, IBCLC co-owner Lactnet,TLC, Indep. Consultant
Williston, Vermont
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LACTNET Archives http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/lactnet.html
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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 08:42:57 -0400
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: "Cindy Curtis, RN, IBCLC" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: article on extended breastfeeding
http://www.onhealth.com/ch1/in-depth/item/item,38673_1_1.asp
Cindy Curtis,RN,IBCLC
http://www.iGive.com/html/ssi.cfm?cid=5731&mid=68196
Turn Everyday Online Shopping Into Philanthropy
mailto:[log in to unmask]
http://www.erols.com/cindyrn
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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 08:46:17 EDT
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: college teaching
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Dear Kris,
I gave the lecture on breastfeeding to nursing students in their maternity
nursing course at a local college for several years. (I was an alum and the
professor was a friend of mine. I even got paid!)
The temptation is to lay a whole load of info on them. It's better to resist
that temptation and focus on presenting a few important points in a way they
will remember. You want to reach them in their role as future parents,
future friends and relatives of babies, future colleagues of health workers
who become parents...not just as nurses in a maternity rotation. At the same
time, you want to give them some tips on what to do in their clinical
experience---how to approach a nursing mother and baby and be helpful to them.
It's a good idea to confer with the professor to select two or three points
that you will cover thoroughly, that can later be tested in an exam. That's
a great way to get some respect for info about breastfeeding!
Whatever the breastfeeding incidence in your area, you want to frame
breastfeeding and lactation as a NORMAL part of women's reproductive life.
If bf rates are low, then you need to spend more time focusing on barriers to
breastfeeding. If rates are high, then the students are more likely to
encounter bf women and babies, so they need practical info on how to assess
and assist. There are usually men in the class, so you need to talk about
the father's role. And there are often women who have not breastfed, so you
need to take their experience into account.
Videos and slides are very good ways to get students' attention. So is
bringing a nursing mother and baby to class. So is a handout---but again,
not one telling them EVERYTHING you think they should know!
I once had a great discussion with the class exploring reasons women in our
culture were uncomfortable with breastfeeding and lactation. We listed a lot
of details about breastfeeding: it involves two people; there's an intimate
contact between bodies and an exchange of body fluid; hormones are released;
it's part of reproduction; it's pleasurable for both partners; it takes a
little time to learn and isn't always comfortable at first; it's free...etc.
It was fun to see the light bulbs go on in their brains as more and more of
them saw the parallels to sex---this, of course, pushed their buttons, being
the age they were!
Good luck. I hope you get a chance to do this.
Chris Mulford
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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 08:04:25 CDT
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Camille Foretich <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: glutamic acidemia
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Can a baby with glutamic acidemia receive breastmilk? What is this disorder?
I looked in the MERCK but found very little information. I appreciate any
information ya'll might have.
Camille Foretich, BS, IBCLC, CHES
Mississippi State Department of Health
P.O. Box 1700 Jackson, MS 39215
phone: 1-800-545-6747
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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 09:08:54 EDT
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: engorgement as nature's dry-up mechanism
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In a message dated 10/25/99 7:45:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:
> Why do we assume an unstimulated, unemptied breast will automatically
> become engorged?
Because engorgement is nature's dry-up mechanism. Just about every mother
will start increasing her milk volume once the placenta is completely
delivered, whether her brain chooses to put baby to breast or not. So milk
will fill the breast. If the milk is not removed, the stasis of the increased
volume of milk in the breast will put pressure on the milk making cells and
send them the message to stop production. This is process of "drying up".
Binding breasts adds to the pressure on the milk making cells, and
suppposedly abets "drying up". No studies on it that I know about.
Warmly, Nikki Lee
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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 09:05:54 -0400
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: T Pitman <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: pacifiers
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I agree that parents give pacifiers because they see so many other babies
with pacifiers, but I also think that the medical professionals have an
influence.
In one community where I lived, pacifiers were not given out in the
hospital, and while some parents used them, they were not all that common.
In a second community, where every baby in the hospital was given a pacifier
(or the ever-popular bottle nipple stuffed with gauze) to suck on, and where
the nurses would tell mothers on the pre-natal tours that every baby needs
and should have a pacifier - well, surprise! the community is filled with
"plugged-in" babies.
Teresa Pitman
Guelph, Ontario
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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 09:27:33 EDT
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
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Subject: Re: pacifiers
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Kathy...
<< I think the main reason most parents in the US give their infants pacifiers
is that they see children all the time with pacifiers -- >>
I would like to add that they are also given out in most hospitals...
and would the hospital give you something for your baby that was not good for
him/her??? ;)
Patricia
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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 09:27:32 EDT
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
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From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Sarah's Daughter
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Sarah:
there are a no. of lactneter's in isreal - i think we need to connect them
with your daughter - for support/encouragment and to help her keep her sanity!
Patricia
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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 09:27:37 EDT
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
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<[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Stripping the breast
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Jean states...
<< Actually, isn't that what we want to happen, as in, with a good latch,
the baby's tongue is far away from the nipple, stripping the lactiferous
sinuses beneath the areolar part of the breast? >>
I think that we have to define "stripping" we want the tongue to
"move"/massage/ the milk... strip??? not sure... we need to agree on how we
define stripping and what we mean by it.
Patricia
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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 09:37:28 EDT
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
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<[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Fruits for Israeli one month olds
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Sarah's daughter wrote from her Israeli nursing school that
<< they believe that additives such as vitamins A, D and C (in the
form of mashed fruit) should be added at 1 month! Not to mention iron,
protein and vegetables, also staring at ridiculously young ages. >>
When I was interviewing caregivers for my first child, then three months old,
I hoped for a while to find a Hebrew speaker (since we speak Hebrew to our
kids). Of course with all the people we interviewed one of the first topics
we discussed was that Avital was exclusively bf, and that when I started back
to work she would still be getting my milk and nothing else for several more
months.
All of the Israeli women who had any childcare experience (mothers, nurses,
one who had worked in a kibbutz baby-house, that now-defunct institution) all
exclaimed in horror, "Oh no! You are wrong! A baby her age needs to get
mashed tomato every day!"
I was wrong??!! Suffice it to say that Avital got a wonderful Caribbean
babysitter who had been bf herself until she was 3 years old...
Elisheva Urbas
NYC
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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 09:48:30 -0400
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Cindy Curtis, RN, IBCLC" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: pacifiers
At our hospital, the parent has to sign a for baby to have a pacifier.
Cindy
Cindy Curtis,RN,IBCLC
http://www.iGive.com/html/ssi.cfm?cid=5731&mid=68196
Turn Everyday Online Shopping Into Philanthropy
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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 07:10:48 PDT
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
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<[log in to unmask]>
From: laurie wheeler <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: recurrent plug ducts
Comments: To: [log in to unmask]
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Hi Jeanne
This lady needs referral to breast specialist ASAP. Could be an abscess.
Could be a cancer.
Laurie Wheeler, RN, MN, IBCLC
Violet Louisiana, s.e. USA
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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 07:09:03 -0700
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Donna Hansen <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: cortisol levels in mum
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Coming out of lurkdom to ask this. I am in contact with a mum nursing a 23
month old who recently was found to have higher than normal cortisol levels
(mum, not baby). I don't know what the level is, or what normal levels are,
but her question is would this have any effect on the nursling?
Donna Hansen
Burnaby, British Columbia (where we are having the most incredible fall
weather, it hasn't started raining yet!)
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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 10:14:46 -0700
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Bettina Pearson <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: The Breastfeeding Center of Maine
Subject: Re: "Breasts, Bottles, and Babies" book
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I really enjoyed this book Cindy, and lucky you, as I have tried
unsucessfully to find a copy for myself. Price would be fine with me. If
you opt not to keep it let me know :)
Bettina Pearson
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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 07:37:55 PDT
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: laurie wheeler <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: url for cosleeping article in boston globe
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OK. You can find the nice article from oct 24 on the cosleeping scare
"beware of bad science" at
http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/297/focus/Beware_of_bad_science_+.shtml
you can scroll to the bottom of the article and click on easy print version
and print it out. very user friendly.
Laurie Wheeler, RN, MN, IBCLC
Violet Louisiana, s.e. USA
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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 11:00:19 -0500
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: "D. McCallister" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: pacifiers/dummies
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Notes from a satisfied pacifier user:
I used a pacifier with both of my (breastfed) babies. I never perceived anything negative
about using one.
My first born was a *very* high-needs baby. At times, I found myself alternating between
marathon nursing sessions (lasting as long as 2-3 hours, unlatching only to switch breasts) and
then frequent "power" nursings (less than 45 minutes from latch to latch). At some point in
the 24-hour period of constantly meeting my son's needs, *I* needed to cook and eat, take a
shower, use the toilet, et cetera. During those times, if my baby was awake, he would happily
suck on the pacifier. I sincerely do not believe that denying him this activity, thus having
him scream the entire time I was bathing, would accomplish anything positive. What part of
that scenario would be good for him?
I returned to work when he was 5 1/2 months old, and considerably calmer than in his early
months. At that point, the caregiver was feeding him bottles of expressed milk, and also using
a pacifier. I wasn't there to nurse him but his sucking needs didn't go away just because he
was at daycare. Perhaps they even increased.
My second child was born independent and remains so, now age 3 1/2. He rarely used a
pacifier. In fact, he didn't really "discover" it until he started going to daycare at age 3
months. Again, I wasn't there to nurse, so less time at the breast meant more time with the
pacifier.
We never had problems with sore nipples, nipple confusion, ear infections, or any other
problem. Like many things in parenting, it's not the "thing," but how you use it. One can use
a pacifier to plug a child's mouth and ignore his needs. Or one can judge whether it's
appropriate, given the circumstances. Always/never mindsets don't serve any useful purposes...
Debbie McCallister
Louisville, Kentucky
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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 10:29:12 -0500
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: "Denny Rice, RN IBCLC, Dallas TX" <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: @Home Network Member
Subject: recurrennt plugged ducts
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Jeanne,
I would be concerned about Pagets disease of the nipple. You can find
information on this at www.breastdoctor.com/breast/cancer/pagets.htm
--
Denny Rice, RN, IBCLC
Dallas Texas USA
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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 08:53:04 -0700
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Monique Schaefers <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: pacifier use
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The time I started using the pacifier with Noah was for car rides. When
he was about 4 weeks old he began to be unhappy in the car for longer
than 10 minutes. I bought a newborn pacifier. It stayed out in the
car. When it was *time* to move up to a bigger pacifier (4 months) he
refused it. We haven't seen them since at out house.
--
Monique
Noah 6/97, ?? edd 6/17/00
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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 12:21:53 -0400
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Cathy Bargar <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: BF educator not IBCLC
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Thinking more about the situation Barbara Arthur posted about, where the
hospital has hired a BFing educator who's not an IBCLC:
You know, they don't hire someone to be Head Nurse (or whatever a given
hospital calls the nsg admin of the unit) who's not an RN, do they, even if
she's a very good manager and plans to become an RN soon? Another example of
breastfeeding being relegated to "oh, anyone can do it, as long as she has
breasts and good intentions" status!
NOT SAYING THAT THE "initials" GUARANTEE SOMEONE IS RIGHT FOR THE JOB! This
newly-hired BF Educator might be the absolute greatest! *But* it does seem
that in a case like this, where a new position is being created and someone
new hired, the job qualifications should include the basic professional
accreditation. Or, at very least, a solid plan for her to co-work or split
responsibilities with someone who *is* qualified until she has demonstrated
competence and/or completed a preparatory course or equivalent training
specific to lactation management and registered to sit the exam.
Cathy Bargar RN IBCLC IThaca NY
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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 12:25:26 -0400
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Cathy Bargar <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Ok, I admit it.
Comments: To: Sarah Barnett <[log in to unmask]>
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All I can say, Sarah, is your daughter is lucky to have you for her mother,
and Israel is lucky to have your daughter as a future midwife!
Cathy B.
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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 12:30:59 -0400
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: "Dr. Tom Hale" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Zoloft and Alprazolam
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To : Jeanette:
Re : Alprazolam
The fact that the infant in question is 1.5 years old is beneficial, and it
is incredibly unlikely that anything via breastmilk is going to bother this
kid, particularly not Zoloft or Alprazolam.
Secondly, when used "chronically" in younger infants, it is possible but not
very likely that alprazolam could produce some sedative effects in a
breastfed infant and perhaps dependence. But the key word is chronic
administration. We do know that when administered chronically, one case
report of a mild withdrawal did occur in one breastfed infant.
However, if this mom only used it ocassionally during the week, I doubt the
infant would every notice it.
Regards
Tom Hale, Ph.D.
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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 12:41:20 EDT
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Why breastfeeding seems difficult.
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<< I know we have discussed making breastfeeding seem "too easy"...
but lately, I have been feeling like we are making breastfeeding "too
difficult". >>
It SEEMS difficult because there is so much to learn, so much that women
didn't learn the natural way, as little girls watching their mothers, aunts
and older sisters suckle their young. I like to tell them they are taking a
highly concentrated crash course that they may find challenging but the
rewards are more than worth the effort to get started.
Alice Martino
in Central New York State
accredited volunteer with a major support group
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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 12:41:30 EDT
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: new co-sleeping device
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I was watching the news this am and they did a piece on a baby product expo
going on in Texas. Of course they showed many objectionable objects. They
also showed a new type of protective device so that parents can sleep with
their baby in bed without "worrying" about suffocating the baby.
It is a rectangular flat piece similar to a changing pad with vertical sides
about 3-4 inches high that extend across the top and halfway down the sides.
(about where baby's head and upper torso would be) The idea is to put this
between the adult pillows and baby sleeps safely without becoming trapped in
bedding or cracks between mattress and headboard.
I haven't decided yet if I like this idea or not. I wish parents would just
sleep with their babies and trust in themselves-but if the gadget will get
them to keep their babies close at night then maybe it is a good thing.
Just thought y'all would like a heads up before we start getting questions
about these things.
Cheryl Tompkins CLC
Phoenix AZ USA
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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 11:56:53 -0500
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Laura Wright <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Kathy Wambier
In-Reply-To: Automatic digest processor <[log in to unmask]>'s
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Congratulations Kathy! Glad to hear your surgery went so well. Get well
soon!
Laura
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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 13:05:58 EDT
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: glutamicacidemia
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Canille:
as glutamicacidemia results in an excessive amount of glutamic acid my quess
is that the baby may have to take something to break it down. it is a "non
-essential" amino acid.
it appears to increase in human milk through the course of lactation ...
Patricia
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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 13:21:28 EDT
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Kermaline J Cotterman <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Breast binders
Comments: To: [log in to unmask]
< Why do we assume an unstimulated, unemptied breast will automatically
become engorged?>
Because the level of prolactin builds up steadily and is at a very high
level at term (nesting urge, bonding?). It is the placental hormones,
specifically progesterone, I believe, that act at the binding sites to
offer opposition to the milk stimulation function of prolactin.
When the placenta is completely delivered and the stored progesterone (in
fatty tissue) has been released and the blood level falls (within about 8
hours after birth, if I remember correctly), the binding sites are then
increasingly free to begin to "do their thing" with the available
prolactin. This is the reason that retained products of conception can be
responsible for delayed lactogenesis.
Each nursing, and probably less so, each pumping, stimulates a new surge
of prolactin within 20-30 minutes, which, if I remember correctly has a
half-life of about 2.5 hours. But even if there is no breast stimulation,
the high initial level of prolactin is capable of bringing on
engorgement.
I have no documentation, but I heard years ago, (and have often told
moms) that there are 2 ways to "dry up", (of course, I'm speaking of
deliberate "drying up", not inadvertent "drying up" by giving the baby a
little more formula each day/week/month!)
1) "The American way" (binding tightly for a few days and taking
analgesics as you describe, and more likely to end up with flabby breasts
from rapid weaning) and
2) "The British way" (stepping into a warm shower and massaging,
expressing etc. , removing however much milk will make mom comfortable,
ONCE or TWICE, at the most, if really necessary, then using ordinary good
support from a bra, with perhaps cold packs for 20-30 minutes
thereafter.)
My understanding was that this may have added 24-48 hours or so to the
"dry up" time but was much more comfortable to moms in the long run, and
much less likely to be followed by mastitis, etc. As you observed, it
seems to preserve more options for the mom, and would seem, on general
principles, to be less "unphysiologic".
Now, I hope my UK friends will fill me in, so that if I say it in the
future, I can give what's evidence based? (Or at least "straighter from
the horse's mouth" as our figure of speech might put it.)
K. Jean Cotterman RNC, IBCLC
Dayton, Ohio USA
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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 14:57:11 -0400
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Kathleen Bruce <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: CSP Sleeping edict and Taiwan, help needed
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Hi all. I have been asked for help by our Taiwanese doctor friend, Chao-Huei
MD. Can you send constructive comments to her at her address please?
[log in to unmask]
Thank you. Kathleen
Dear Kathleen:
As I have told you, I've been off mail for a long
time.I did not notice that there had been such a long
discussion about co-sleep till this morning.
I got a fax from out Society of Neonatology.USA
business culture office in Taipei(I am not very sure
of the official name) had send the report of CPSC to
the Consumer Protection Committee of our government
and asked we to do something. This message was sent to
our Society of Neonatology and other related
organizations through our Department of Health. I was
asked to comment on it before Oct 28.
I admit that we are very westernized and actually
Americanized. But, I am very upset that we are asked
to change our culture norm just because of an ariticle
that still needed to be discussed.
I am looking at all the messages from the Archive of
Lactnet . It takes time. I will very appreciate if you
could give me some practical suggestions.
Best regards,
Chao-Huei
Kathleen B. Bruce, BSN, IBCLC co-owner Lactnet,TLC, Indep. Consultant
Williston, Vermont
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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 15:52:55 EDT
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: always never mindsets serving a useful purpose
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"always" use car seats, the exception being a life and death emergency, not
just "don't feel like it"? "always" try to use breastmilk and if that is not
possible use pumped milk or donor milk, "never" use formula just because its
free, convenient, less of a hassle, seems "normal," "everyone does it," how
about only in a true life or death emergency where no other milk is
available? gosh, i think i could come up with a few more.
of course, the person who takes the baby in the car and doesn't have an
accident feels that it is safe. the person who uses formula and has a healthy
baby feels fine about using it, and the person who has no problems with
pacifier use can endorse it. but the exception doesn't always prove the rule.
carol brussel IBCLC
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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 14:12:33 -0600
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Patricia Blomme <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Letter to Fit Pregnancy
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Well Guys and Gals of the lactation world. This was my letter to the
Magazine. The space with which to write such a letter did not have much
mauch space and upon reading it in full on a bigger screen I can see some of
the things I could have said. But the ball is rolling anyway and I hope to
get some feed back. I might in future need some support in doning this for
changing the world is a big job!!! thanks for being there and all the
support thus far. wouldn't it be great if we could get them to stop the
advert!!!
Patricia in Calgary
Good Morning dear Sir /Madam
The reason for writing this message is of great importance.
I am an avid reader of your magazine and look for it on the shelf of my
local store for each issue (a favorite task). I have become dismayed in the
last few years since becoming very involved in the promotion of
breastfeeding. During this time of learning and promoting breastfeeding I
have come across a variety of myths that are associated with formula use. I
myself having once believed that each was as good as the other. Well in the
years since I began having children of my own I have learned much and
realized how gullable I was when it came to breastfeeding and the
introduction of artificial baby milk (ABM) products. My first leasson was
that by introducing this stuff I was sabatoging my efforts at breastfeeding
and there by made breastfeeding harder on myself than necessary. This was
all done in ignorance. Now I have come to know that I was lead to believe
that ABM was equal to that of formula. I now know different, which brings me
to my reason for writing.
In reading your magazine I notice that you consistantly advertise for one of
the ABM companies. This advertising is in direct violation of the World
Health Organizations "International Code Against the Marketing of Artificial
Infant Formulas". I am including with this letter the web sites that contain
this code.
I thank you for the time and attention you will give to this serious matter.
Thank you,
Patricia Blomme RN
Certified Perinatal Nurse
Birth educator
Labor assistant
Breastfeeding counsellor/advocate
(Calgary, Alberta)
the sites are as follows:
http://www.gn.apc.org/ibfan/fullcode.html
http://wwwgn/acp.org/ibfan/thecode.html
I know these sites will tell the same tale, but I thought it important that
you understand this is a very serious thing, and to note also the company
which you advertise for has an international boycott against it. Just
thought you would like to be informed.
http://www.tdh.texas.gov/lactate/whocode.htm
http://www.infactcanada.ca/whocode/innocent.htm
http://www.oneworld.org/unicef/cracking.htm
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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 16:42:45 -0400
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Cathy Bargar <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Breast Binders
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Laura wrote: "Does anyone else have strong feelings against breast binding?
Can you tell me why you feel the way you do?"
I'm assuming you're referring to non-BFing and non-planning-to-BF women...
I think that it's a matter of comfort, and therefore varies from woman to
woman (duh, haven't I heard that before a few million times?). Some women
are definitely more comfortable with their breasts "bound" - although I hate
that word; I hate *any* phrase that associates "bound" and parts of the
female anatomy! I advise women to "wrap their breasts firmly", using an ace
bandage, a snug sports bra, or even a dish towel, if it is more comfortable
for them while they are trying to suppress lactation. I think (can't cite
chapter & verse here) that pressure over the front of the breast (the nipple
and areolar area) helps to suppress leaking or let-down - that's why we
advise women who feel an MER coming on in an inconvenient situation to cross
their arms across their breasts & apply pressure.
But other women are more comfortable with a more gradual lactation
suppression, maybe even expressing a couple of drops of "overflow" to
comfort, even though it takes longer to involute. (Heaven forfend that the
"bra police", as I used to call the nurses who "insisted" that non-BFing
women bind their breasts, should get hold of that tid-bit!)
I do find it necessary to explain just how strongly programmed our bodies
are to make milk for our babies, and that it takes a lot more effort to
suppress the milk than it does to follow the course nature intended. I
figure that'll give 'em something to think about while they're sitting there
with those chunky rocks on their chests, and I've had more than one woman
tell me she decided she might just as well go ahead & BF as put up with
getting the milk to go away!
I have also had plenty of experience with women who did go through the
"binding" routine, only to decide they wanted to BF days or weeks later, and
have found that they are generally able to do so.
I have a vast amount of confidence in this process and in women's bodies as
they respond to their babies' needs - I don't think that the milk surge can
be that easily suppressed, any more than a woman can keep from giving birth
by deciding she's going to "pucker up" and refuse to allow the baby to be
born. (WEll, maybe I'm exaggerating a bit there...)
Cathy Bargar RN IBCLC Ithaca NY
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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 17:33:35 -0400
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: "Dr. Tom Hale" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Fragmin
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To : Toni
Re : Fragmin
Fragmin is just low molecular weight heparin. Because it is a
polysaccharide fragment of heparin, its molecular weight is large and
varies from 2000-9000 daltons, which would largely preclude its entry into
human milk. Due to minimal oral bioavailability, any present in milk
would not be orally absorbed by the infant.
This and one other variety is in my '99 book.
Regards
Tom Hale, Ph.D.
http://www.perinatalpub.com
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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 18:13:20 -0400
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Esther Wiles <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Need Breastfeeding information in Braille
In the next month or so we expect to have on our floor a mother who is blind.
We would like to have information for her.
Does anyone know where we may obtain information in braille or does anyone already have informaton for their practice and willing to share?
Thanks.....
Esther Wiles, RN, IBCLC. from Michigan
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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 18:50:42 -0700
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Becky <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: bf in medical school
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Oh, Denise, I'm envious; you got way more than I did!
Becky Saenz, MD, IBCLC
At 08:33 PM 10/24/99 PDT, you wrote:
>This is what I remember about the breastfeeding curriculum in medical school
>and residency...
>I don't recall any lectures in the first two years of basic sciences.. My
>husband remembers having 2 lectures where he went to school. He says this is
>when he learned an association between bf and higher IQ. My junior
>rotations included 6 weeks of peds and OB each.Senior electives included a
>month each of OB, Newborn nursery,NICU,PICU(in central Florida) and Family
>medicine with OB(at a different central Florida Hospital). My junior OB
>experience was at 3 different hospitals. I remember having the impression if
>a mother chose to breastfeed, she was making a decision that interfered with
>our interventions,ie... birth control... No one was discharged without birth
>control. During my senior year I recall some moms using the pump and seeing
>a freezer filled with breast milk. On rounds I do remember the neonatologist
>asking us if the milk of premature mothers is well suited for premature
>infants. I don't remember the answer. I do remember doing alot of
>calculations on calories/ounce of infant formula to give to preemies based
>on weight. Also one of the hospitals prescribed parlodil, the other said
>their was not any studies to show that it helped dry up milk quicker.I
>remember discharging a lot of mothers with instructions to wear tight
>bras(to dry up the milk) for a week.
>My residency in Family Medicine was done at the same school. I don't recall
>a lot of breastfeeding talks,but our family medicine dept. did promote a
>more family oriented birth experience compared to the OB dept.The two
>departments quarrelled a lot about intervention in labor. My husband
>remembers a well liked family practice attending pumping milk. I did a
>prenatal rotation in a rural clinic, I recall a poster listing benefits of
>breastfeeding. On that rotation I began to encourage women to breastfeed.
>The pediatric residents all had really cool overnight bags with the teddy
>bear logo on it. The peds residents were a very fertile group, but I don't
>recall any of them talking about breastfeeding their baby.
>And I do remember going to two lectures on which formula to use.Same
>lecture,but two different years.
>Denise Punger MD
>Medical College Of Georgia class of 93-who also remembers being taught that
>much of what we teach now will be proven wrong by future research
>http://doctor.medscape.com/denisepungermd
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 18:53:48 -0700
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Becky <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: glutamic acidemia
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Glutamic acidemia one of a group of extremely rare "inborn errors of
metabolism" in which the body is lacking some of the enzymes to digest
certain amino acids, in this case glutamic acid. A more common example of
this type of disease is phenylketonuria (PKU). I would think partial
breastfeeding would be okay, though.
Becky Saenz, MD,IBCLC
At 08:04 AM 10/25/99 CDT, you wrote:
>Can a baby with glutamic acidemia receive breastmilk? What is this disorder?
>I looked in the MERCK but found very little information. I appreciate any
>information ya'll might have.
>
>Camille Foretich, BS, IBCLC, CHES
>Mississippi State Department of Health
>P.O. Box 1700 Jackson, MS 39215
>phone: 1-800-545-6747
>
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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 19:46:04 -0400
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Sarah Barnett <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Thanks for the great responses
Mime-Version: 1.0
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So many people have responded with great information and support for my
daughter in nursing school in Israel. Thank you all for both of us.
This makes me realize again what a wonderful forum for sharing Lactnet
is. Thanks to the listmothers too.
Sarah
Sarah Friend Barnett LLLL, IBCLC
Bronx (New York City), NY - [log in to unmask]
" You are not obliged to finish the task,
neither are you free to neglect it." R. Tarfon
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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 19:00:36 -0500
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Rachael Patricia Mckim <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: The Effects of Breast Augmentation on Lactation
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While paging through my husband's September, 1999 issue of the
magazine "Maxim", I came across an interview that had been done with
the actress, Pamela Anderson. In the interview, Pamela talks about her
recent "downsizing". As you may have heard, she has had her breast
implants reduced from a D cup to a C cup. Also included in the article
was some discussion of Pamela's 2 small children. This got me to
thinking, how has all this breast surgery affected her ability to
breastfeed? Literature I have found on this topic is not real clear. In
one article, it states that 0-70% of women are able to lactate after
breast augmentation surgery (Widdice, 1993). Bell & Rawlings, 1998 state
that previous breast surgery may or may not affect lactation due to the
fact that surgery often displaces the ductal system and destroys
innervation. Also reported that the ability to breastfeed is dependent on
the type of surgical procedure done and that many times, women are not
thinking of breastfeeding at the time they make the decision to have
surgery (Hansson & Locklin, 1999). I also researched plastic surgery
and was unable to find any kind of information about what kind of surgical
procedures will destroy the ability to breastfeed. I was wondering if
anyone out there has any experience or advice to share on this topic. It
would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
Rachael M, Student Nurse
College of Nursing, University of North Dakota
James, B. (1999). Keeping it Real. Maxim for Men, pp 174-180.
Widdice, L. (1993). The Effects of Breast Reduction and Breast
Augmentation Surgery on Lactation. Journal of Human Lactation, 9(3), pp
161-167.
Hansson, M. & Locklin, M. (1999). Home Visits: Strategies to
Protect the Breastfeeding Newborn at Risk. Journal of Obstetric,
Gynecologic and Neonatal Nursing, 28(1), pp 33-40.
Bell, K. & Rawlings, N. (1998). Promoting Breastfeeding by
Managing Common Lactation Problems. American Journal of Primary Health
Care, 23(6), pp 102-106.
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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 20:12:54 EDT
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
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From: Sharon Healy <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: OLD MEMORIES
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Hi I was just wondering what everyone does with their old books. eg, I have
a Goldfarb and Tibbetts book from 1980, old Ruth Lawrence Books, a Dr. Spock
book from 1950, "Simplified Infant Feeding ", from 1915etc. I have saved
them but it is becoming a clutter. Any suggestions???? Please email me.
Sharon <[log in to unmask]>
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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 20:22:44 -0400
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
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From: Mari Douma <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: foods and gas and simethicone (long)
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Having read Heather's post on the Simethicone advertisement, I wanted to
share with you that I wrote Johnson's and Johnson's to express my
displeasure at the information that they were dispensing.
I know in the past we've discussed this issue on Lactnet and pooh-poohed the
idea of "cabbage, onions, beans, bran, broccoli, cauliflower, caffeine and
brussels sprouts" that are ingested by the mother causing "gas" in the
breastfeeding baby. (other than the caffeine, which can pass into the milk,
unlike fiber)
Here is the letter that I sent them (mid July!) and their response
(10-1-99): Perhaps if others wrote, too, we might make an impact. Sorry this
is so lengthy but if anyone is inclined to write, I want them to what I've
said and how it was responded to.
To whom it may concern:
I am a pediatrician with the Dept of Pediatrics at Michigan State
University. I have recently received a copy of Pediatric Nursing Today (Vol
4, Issue 1) which was produced by Johnson and Johnson and Merck. One of the
topics within this issue was on infant gas and its prevention. The text on
page 2 states that a breastfeeding mother should avoid eating gassy foods
such as beans, bran, and broccoli as these foods ingested by the mother can
cause gas in a breastfed baby. This information is GROSSLY incorrect. These
foods may cause gas in the person ingesting them because of their action in
that person's intestines. They DO NOT have any way of entering the mother's
milk and causing gas in a breastfed baby. Such misinformation can make it
more difficult for a mother to continue breastfeeding.
I hope that the editors of this publication research the information that
they print for health care providers and parents. It is important that your
publications contain correct information in the future. I know I have taken
a strong tone in this letter, but I am aghast at such obviously incorrect
information in your publication. I expect better from you. I hope that you
will change this incorrect information in your publications and on your
website. I look forward to hearing from you.
Sincerely,
Mari Douma, DO, FACOP, FAAP
Assistant Professor of Pediatrics
College of Osteopathic Medicine
Michigan State University
Dear Dr. Douma:
Your comments regarding our Pediatric Nursing Today (Vol.4, Issue 1)
regarding the possibility that gassy foods consumed by a nursing mother
could lead to infant gas have been referred to me for reply.
It is the policy of Johnson and Johnson Merck Consumer Pharmaceuticals to
conduct extensive research and support for any claims. In the American
Academy of Pediatrics publication "Caring for Your Baby and Child: Birth to
Age 5, The Complete and Authoritative Guide (1993)," the following statement
appears on page 92: "Your baby may have a colicky reaction whenever you eat
a certain food, or he may react only after you eat a large quantity of a
particular food that causes no trouble in smaller amounts. "Gassy" foods,
such as cabbage, onions, garlic, broccoli, and turnips, cause problems for
many breast-fed infants."
The book The Meat and Potatoes of Breastfeeding (1993) by Jill Dalley, also
addresses this issue. In the fact or myth section states, "Broccoli eaten by
a breastfeeding mom causes gas in the baby. FACT: Some babies are adversely
affected by this type of food. Specific food values pass through to the
breast milk affecting composition and flavor. Mothers should stay alert to
their babies' needs."
I hope this information is helpful.
Sincerely,
Michael J. O'Mara, RPh
Medical Affairs Specialist
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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 20:27:19 EDT
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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<[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: LACTNET Digest - 25 Oct 1999 - Special issue (#1999-123)
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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 20:28:24 EDT
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
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From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: oops and braille
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my only excuse is that my computer is on its last legs (or is that bits). LLL
has an audiotape of the womanly art of breastfeeding that is wonderful, the
reader has such a beautiful voice it would make anyone want to just run right
out and find a baby to nurse.
carol brussel IBCLC
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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 19:28:12 -0500
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
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From: Kathy Dettwyler <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Pamela Anderson's breast size
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>As you may have heard, she has had her breast implants reduced from a D cup
to a C cup.
I thought she just had her implants taken out completely, not reduced in size.
But seriously folks, Pamela Anderson's breasts (with implants) were
unbelievably humongous. Not quite as obscene as that Italian porn
star/politician's or Dolly Parton's, but WAY WAY WAY more than a D cup. Who
in the WORLD does she think she is fooling????
Early augmentation surgery often just sliced open the breast midway between
areola and armpit, and stuffed in a bag of silicone. This was likely to
sever many ducts, destroy nerve sensations in the nipple, etc. More recent
techniques involve an incision next to one's navel, and the implant is
placed either between pectoral muscle and glandular tissue, or within the
pectoral muscle, thus not cutting any of the milk ducts. The more recent
kind are much less likely to interfere with breastfeeding.
Breast reduction surgery is more of a problem, and usually a lot of ducts
and glandular tissue are removed, and often the nipple/areola is completely
severed and placed on a side dish during surgery, then reattached. This not
only results is complete loss of sensation in the nipple/areola, but also
lots and lots of scar tissue making it difficult to get milk to the nipple.
Kathy Dettwyler
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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 21:16:50 -0400
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Patti Carroll <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Buying Used Lactina Pumps
I have recently discovered the fun of ebay auctions. I have seen three used
Lactina pumps for sale in the past three weeks. If you are inclined to buy
these....be sure to check with Medela and make sure they are not stolen.
You just need the serial number and Medela can tell you if it is a rental.
So far, I bought one and found one that was stolen from a hospital rental
station. Currently, there is one on there for sale but the woman won't give
me the serial number!
Patti Carroll, RN, IBCLC
Near Atlanta Georgia...on beautiful Lake Lanier...
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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 21:20:38 -0400
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Patti Carroll <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Buying Used Lactina Pumps
Would anyone care to share privately with me their comparison of the 2
pumps?
Mailto:[log in to unmask]
Patti Carroll, RN, IBCLC
Near Atlanta Georgia...on beautiful Lake Lanier...
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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 21:22:37 -0400
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Patti Carroll <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: "Purely Yours" vs "Pump In Style"
oops, forgot to change the subject line!
Would anyone care to share privately with me their comparison of the 2
pumps?
Mailto:[log in to unmask]
Patti Carroll, RN, IBCLC
Near Atlanta Georgia...on beautiful Lake Lanier...
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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 20:29:03 -0500
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
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From: Julius Edlavitch <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Lactation Chat Next Week
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Lactation Chat
Lead by Kay Hoover MA Ed & Dr Jack Newman
Starts Monday November 1st at 9 PM NY time
They are planning a special event every Monday
I will post them in these updates very soon
http://www.pedschat.org
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Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 21:05:20 -0400
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
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From: Patrica Young <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: disturbing editorial
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Well it just made me want to puke.........going to the BF thing on Wed with
Dr Rosenberg, trying to organize a Halloween party for 30 11-12 yos. on
Fri pm. Not sure why I said OK! Oh gads. See ya, Pat
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Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 21:20:11 -0400
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
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From: Patrica Young <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Need Breastfeeding information in Braille
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i am fairly sure that LLLI has BF info in Braille and also taped books.
Sincerely, Pat in SNJ
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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 18:36:57 -0700
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
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From: Jenny Bowen <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: What to charge for speaking at a conferance
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I am posting this for a friend. She has been asked to talk at a Doula =
conference and has no idea what to charge. Any suggestions would be =
helpful. Please sent them to me via private Email and I will get your =
responses to her. TIA
Kim Sweet RN, IBCLC
Phoenix, AZ
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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 18:43:11 -0700
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
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From: Jenny Bowen <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: SNS trouble: update
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To all who responded, thank you for your help. This little one started =
taking all of her feedings at the breast with the SNS. The gavage tube is =
out!!!! And she is going home tomorrow. This mom used an SNS for 15 months =
with her last baby. Right now she is getting ~10-20ml of breast milk 8+ =
times per day as long as she stays on Reglan. This woman is fantastic.
Kim Sweet RN, IBCLC
Phoenix, AZ
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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 23:17:51 EDT
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Suzanne Bowes RN CLE <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Breast Binding / Lactation education in med shcool
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Dear Lactnetters:
Just wanted to jump in on these two subjects. First, on breast binding. It
is a very old practice handed down from the old school. My own personal
experience is when I had a fetal demise and experienced engorgement 3 days
post partum (surprise)! My mother helped me to "bind" my breast w/ a dish
towel snugly and apply ice packs. It helped me as it was more comfortable
than heavy, drippy, painful breasts to remind me that the milk had no where
to go. Also, I constantly felt hugged. I went on to happily nurse my next 3
babies w/o difficulty. A sports bra or ace wrap sound like a more practical
way of doing it.
Second, lactation education in med. school. Up until recently I have been
under the delusion that lactation was taught in med. school. Recently, I was
making rounds w/ a young OB and the Mom asked her some breastfeeding
questions. The doc shrugged her shoulders and looked at me saying, " I have
not had children, yet. You'll need to ask the nurses." This leads me to
speculate as to the reason there is tension between some physicians and
nurses/LC's. We have made lactation a science and an area of medicine. In
our institution, we seem to have this tug-of-war between some of the Peds
(and some nurses) and the lactation/nursing staff. Any docs out there care
to put your 2 cents in? I am interested if anyone else shares my guess.
S. Bowes RN, IBCLC
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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 22:32:44 -0500
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
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From: Wiedmeyer <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Braille resources
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> Does anyone know where we may obtain information in braille or does anyone
already have informaton for their practice and willing to share?
Esther,
Contact La Leche League (847-519-9585 or 847-519-7730 between 9 am and 5 pm
Central time) for a free brochure which provides a current list of
breastfeeding materials they have in Braille and on casette tapes. Ask for
publication #560
Peggy Wiedmeyer
La Leche League Leader in Wisconsin
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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 11:29:00 +1000
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Querida David <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: on Medscape today
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BREASTFEEDING LINKED TO REDUCED RISK OF CHILDHOOD LEUKEMIA
Multicenter US oncologists say that breastfeeding may protect children from
leukemia.
http://womenshealth.medscape.com/13166.rhtml
<a href="http://womenshealth.medscape.com/13166.rhtml">Read it Here</a>
Querida David IBCLC
Alyangula. NT. Australia
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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 01:33:54 EDT
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Subject: short tongue ?
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I did a search on this subject and read all 14 responses. I posted quite a
while ago about a mom with a baby that has a short tongue. That baby is 6
months old now. Mom is still breastfeeding and giving little solids. The baby
actually gags on most of the foods she tries to give him. He still latches on
goofy!
Now he has lower teeth. The nipples are very chewed from the teeth. The mom
has never seen the oral surgeon. I finally got her to talk to a NDT in the
area.
She decided to pump for a few days to give the nipples a break. The boy is
crawling and developing fine. I was considering the nipple shield. Would she
have to put them on every time she wanted to nurse? Can they be left on and
for how long?
Is there any other great ideas or words of wisdom for a mom that really wants
this to work? She will pump and feed with a bottle if this is what's
necessary.
Annette Leibovitz, IBCLC
Buffalo Grove, IL
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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 00:39:26 -0500
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From: Susan R Potts <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Positive statements
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Dear Laura Wright,
Hope some of these comments may be helpful to you! I often tell
parents the first week or two of breastfeeding can be difficult with some
good feedings, some not so good feedings, some nipple or breast
tenderness/fullness, as mom and baby are learning, but many many mothers
have commented to me, "It's so easy now, (after 1-2 weeks), my milk is
always warm, always in a clean container, (some might say attractive
container....such as the male of our species), with no bottles to wash
and no formula to mix and keep cool."
Breastfeeding is natural, but it is learned, and baby has never eaten
with the mouth before, and it often takes 4 hands to get started the
first couple of days; at which time I will nod to papa, include and draw
him in, show him how to help how I was helping and how to gently massage
baby to keep him awake, and push slowly and gently under baby's chin to
stimulate the sucking motion if baby stops; also to help mom identify if
baby is slipping off the nipple during the feeding by more areola
showing.
Yes, it is an art to keep teaching on the positive note! We can
always learn different, better ways to phrase and teach! The people I
most admire and get along with in life are teachable and flexible, and
I hope to be the same!!
I think we need to mention that some women become engorged, some
women experience sore nipples, but it can be avoided or minimized with
correct latch well onto the areola and close positioning, and with
frequent feedings in the early days.
Good luck, Laura! You are asking great questions and I will eagerly
read the other responses to them!
Susan Potts rn ibclc
Minnesota
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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 00:46:21 -0500
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From: Susan R Potts <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Plugged ducts, positions
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Dear Jeanne,
Just a short comment on positioning. Varying positions may help,
worth a try, anyway. One of my daughters would nurse only in cradly hold
for a while, I would be so tired at night having to sit up with her!
What finally worked was sitting at the edge of the bed to get her latched
on, then I gradually scooted down until I was side lying. It's hard to
fool a baby, but this worked!
Susan Potts rn ibclc
Your neighbor in Minnesota
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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 08:12:10 +0100
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From: heather <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Breast binders
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Kermaline describes what happens when a non-bf woman needs to cope with
engorgement:
>
>2) "The British way" (stepping into a warm shower and massaging,
>expressing etc. , removing however much milk will make mom comfortable,
>ONCE or TWICE, at the most, if really necessary, then using ordinary good
>support from a bra, with perhaps cold packs for 20-30 minutes
>thereafter.)
This is more or less what tends to happen these days, AFAIK, though the
'once or twice' milk removal might be more, depending on the mother's
comfort. I haven't heard of cold packs being used, but I don't know
everything : ) , and I tend not to hear what goes on with non-bf mothers.
Breast binders used to be common, not just for non-bf mothers but for
everyone - some midwives would get what we call a draw sheet (a small
bedsheet) and they would fold it into a bra shape and pin you into it. I
had this done to me in fact.
I haven't heard of it recently. The supportive bra is recommended, yes.
Heather Welford Neil
NCT bfc Newcastle upon Tyne UK
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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 08:16:40 +0100
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: heather <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: sueing docs - a rumour?
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I was at the Scottish Joint Breastfeeding Initiative yesterday and spoke
with a senior midwife who asked me I had heard a story from the US about a
mother who was sueing her paediatrician. This paed. had 'ordered' the
mother to switch to formula at 6 weeks, and the baby later developed
diabetes. The mother is now taking legal action against her doctor.
That's the only info she has! I said I didn't recall it coming up on
Lactnet but I would ask you if any of you had heard of this anywhere.
Heather Welford Neil
NCT bfc Newcastle upon Tyne UK
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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 08:57:16 +0100
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: heather <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: foods and gas and simethicone (long)
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Mari writes of her letter to J&J and their response.
J&J claim to conduct 'extensive research' for statements yet the only refs
they can give for avoiding that whole list of foods if bf are two
un-referenced books for consumers.
They quote
the American Academy of Pediatrics publication "Caring for Your Baby and
Child: Birth to
Age 5, The Complete and Authoritative Guide (1993) "Your baby may have a
colicky reaction whenever you eat a certain food, or he may react only
after you eat a large quantity of a
particular food that causes no trouble in smaller amounts. "Gassy" foods,
such as cabbage, onions, garlic, broccoli, and turnips, cause problems for
many breast-fed infants."
In which case, there's an argument with the authors of this book, and also
this one:
The Meat and Potatoes of Breastfeeding (1993) by Jill Dalley, which also
does not reference the claim.
Neither book's claims should lead to the advice from J&J to avoid these
foods, though, IMO, whether your baby appears to have problems with them
or not.
I don't think we can be dogmatic about whether some foods lead to gassy
pains in some bf babies (though I confess I am sceptical as to whether it
happens as often as is sometimes thought) , but Mari's right that J&J
should be prepared to justify their claims that all bf mothers should avoid
this long list of foods.
Heather Welford Neil
NCT bfc Newcastle upon Tyne UK
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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 08:59:27 +0100
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: heather <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Pamela Anderson's breast size
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But I heard that 'Pammy' did actually breastfeed her babies - was that not
right? I think I recall an interview with Ruby Wax when she talked about
bf (this was after the birth of baby number one).
Heather Welford Neil
NCT bfc Newcastle upon Tyne UK
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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 09:07:12 GMT
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Magda Sachs <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: BfN The Breastfeeding Network
Subject: dummies / pacifiers
Just to jump in with a question, really. Is there any research on the milk of
women who are exclusively breastfeeding and using dummies? Could it affect the
Na/K ratio of the milk ( a definition I have seen in a yet-to-be published paper
of sub-clinical mastitis)???? The reason this might be of interest is this
paper suggests that women with sub-clinical mastitis (as meassured by the
sodium/potassium ratio) who are also HIV+ may have a higher viral load in their
milk and so be more at risk of transmission of the virus. If this hypothesis is
true, would it hold for other infections????
I would love to hear of any research on this.
Magda Sachs
(who is NOT a virologist)
Breastfeeding Supporter, BfN, UK
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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 09:00:41 GMT
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Magda Sachs <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: BfN The Breastfeeding Network
Subject: old books
Comments: To: [log in to unmask]
Sharon:
Hi I was just wondering what everyone does with their old books. eg, I have
a Goldfarb and Tibbetts book from 1980, old Ruth Lawrence Books, a Dr. Spock
book from 1950, "Simplified Infant Feeding ", from 1915etc. I have saved
them but it is becoming a clutter. Any suggestions????
Sharon, I SAVE mine (in the loft, if necessary) -- some of these old books have
valuable historical info. I use mine to look back and see where some of the
poor info we are still dealing with comes from. For example, a diagram in the
1981 (possibly also in the 1951 edition, but I don't have that) of 'MacKeith's
Infant Feeding Difficulties' shows a mother in bed with the baby's head firmly
in the crook of her arm, also a drawing of the mother's fingers holding breast
tissue away from the nipple, to offer to the baby. Makes me realise why my
first baby, born in 1986, attracted such duff information from my midwives.
Great resources for training -- 'where we went wrong'.
I have also started buying old books second hand -- recently bought Mavis
Gunther's Infant Feeding, which contains info cited by Mike Woolridge adn Chole
Fisher in their '80's work on breastfeeding.
So, if you don't want those books, someone will -- !!
Magda Sachs (I confess -- I have been known to buy copies of the Stanway's
'Breast is Best', which I still sometimes see in second hand stores, and THROW
IT OUT, but I *have* aquired my own 50's Spock -- complete with British
advertising inset for formula milk, and my mother buys me ancient editions of
'The Womanly Art' and other american gems)
Breastfeeding Supporter, BfN (with a history degree), UK
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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 09:30:29 +0100
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From: heather <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: breastfeeding criminals!
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From the diary column in today's Guardian:
In Deptford, S. London, a young mother began breastfeeding her baby in
front of a male sales assistant in Embassy Leisurewear in Deptford High
Street, so ostentatiously, reports the Greenwich News Shopper, that the
poor man was embarrassed into looking away. When he turned back round again
the woman and her friends had nicked half the stock and left.
(Translation: nicked = stolen)
Heather Welford Neil
NCT bfc Newcastle upon Tyne UK
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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 10:00:21 +0100
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: heather <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: old books
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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I agree with Magda, Sharon - these old books are gems!
I have a great picture in an old book (The Modern Womans Medical Guide) , a
photograph, illustrating a mother preparing to feed (it's some time in the
50s). She has a trolley next to her , and on it, is an alarm clock (so
vital!) , a surgical steel bowl with cotton wool swabs, a jug of water, and
she has *a rubber apron* on. She is offering her baby the breast as if it
was a bottle - in fact there is hardly any difference in the positions of
the mother and the baby who is bottle feeding in the previous picture. The
mother bottle feeding is pictured in a garden (no clocks, not cotton wool,
no rubber apron...) Talk about every picture tells a story.....
There is also a timetable for the new baby which includes some strange
thing called 'mothering time' which apparently happens from 'about 4.30 or
5pm to 6 pm'. 'At this time, baby should be lifted from his perambulator,
given boiled water or orange juice from a spoon, his napkjins should be
removed and he should be held on his mother's lap to kick and be loved....'
Heather Welford Neil
NCT bfc Newcastle upon Tyne UK
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Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 00:24:12 +1300
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Barneveld <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Few bits and pieces
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my mother (who breastfed three of us into over 97% babies with late =
solids in the 1960's) talks about the public health nurse coming to help =
her "strip" her breasts when she had double sided mastitis in the first =
month. from her story and teh severity of symtoms I suspect it was =
intraductal rather tahn inter ductal (?) have I got that round the right =
way - its midnight here. She did find it helpful - a couple of times a =
day for about a week I think. Also I know of a very gentle non- =
interventionist LC who will help a mother do it once on rare occasions =
when engorgement isn't resolving by normal methods with good results. =
And it does seem that some judicious expressing on an involuting breast =
seems to speed the process at times.
Wyeth has been guilty in NZ of some 'beautiful' formula advertising with =
lovely baby photos. I even picked one up and started reading it before I =
knew what it was promoting ( S26) at my doctors.=20
I really appreciated the thread (and responses) about breastfeeding and =
working. It did inspire me to get pumping! However one thing that was =
surprisingly helpful was that piece (?Cathy) about breast milk, =
breastfeeding etc in relationship to a milk bank. What struck me was =
what was important to me was maintaining breastfeeding with Jonathan =
when we were together, some pumping and him having EBM at childcare was =
a secondary benefit to maintain that goal. My strapping 6foot 3" 17 year =
old who was milk intolerant weaned (the first time) at eleven months so =
while I look at my nursing toddelrs and wonder how I could have thought =
he was big eneough I do feel confident that Jonathan can get enough =
nourishment without nursing during the day. I'm just sharing this for =
what its worth for those of you helping mothers returning to work make =
decisions, what are the priorities about breastfeeding that are =
important for them.Sonja LLLNZ
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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 08:10:04 EDT
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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Subject: .
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Search sickle cell anemia since Jan 1999
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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 07:37:42 -0500
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Jeanne Mitchell <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: breastfeeding criminals!
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Heather -
Oh, dear. Now, there's one for our cause! Unfortunately, I'm afraid
this will just give store owners ammunition to disallow breastfeeding in
shops. The proper course of action, of course, would be for us to teach
people that it's okay to look! :-D
--
Jeanne Mitchell, Austin, TX
http://www.flash.net/~xanth/home.htm
mailto:[log in to unmask]
"You can tell the quality of a person by how
they treat people they don't need." My Dad
> >From the diary column in today's Guardian:
>
> In Deptford, S. London, a young mother began breastfeeding her baby in
> front of a male sales assistant in Embassy Leisurewear in Deptford High
> Street, so ostentatiously, reports the Greenwich News Shopper, that the
> poor man was embarrassed into looking away. When he turned back round again
> the woman and her friends had nicked half the stock and left.
>
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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 08:48:29 -0700
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Anne Andrianos <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: binding
Comments: To: [log in to unmask]
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Hi Laurie: I think binding is a hostile thing to do to women. It has
gone on forever, and I am sure that it has never been researched...pro
or con. My mother tells of being bound after four months of
breastfeeding me because "she had an abcess". (This was 50 years ago).
Her neighbor came over and bound her... it was very unpleasant but it
"had to be done". She doesn't recall any medication? or any other part
of the treatment. It
Recently, a mother with whom I was working, was ordered to bind herself
after a second bout of mastitis at 6 weeks. (I posted about this at the
time as I needed help). She had an enormous milk supply (in part
developed by poor information to pump before each feeding to manage the
letdown) and it was the longest 3 week. After the first day she was so
terribly engorged ...it is difficult to describe.. rock hard up uo the
collar bone. MD said bind tighter and don't remove the binding. She
followed the advice, even though it was getting hard to breathe. I
pleaded with her to change this approach, but no amount of cabbage, sage
tea, ice etc. really made a dent. At one week, she was still
engorged...the imprintof her bra was so clear on her mottled skin...but
getting better. Very gradually, the milk supply decreased...no abcess as
she stayed on anti-biotics for the enitre three weeks. Her pain, her
sadness, her total spirit was trampled...it was as bad as anything I
have witnessed.
Additionally, no support was offered by either the MD office or the
hospital where she delivered (and they knew of the problem). Just keep
going...it will stop at some point.
The process of lactation is so poorly understood that I don't think that
how it is started or ended is considered at all.... Turn it on turn it
off. I would like researchers to consiser what kind of toxic levels of
enzymes are released at this time? what about all the necrosis of
mammary cells, WBCs in circulation? reabsorbtion of milk. Talk about a
physiological process in reverse. I would suspect the consequences are
significant...but no one really knows...or really cares. I hacve some
thoughts about the long term consequence...
In my opinion it is a continuation of the hostile manner in which women
are regarded by so many (including women) all over the world...but that
is too, too much to go into here.
Anne Andrianos, MS,RN,IBCLC
[log in to unmask]
http://web.syr.edu/~afandria/
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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 09:24:16 -0400
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From: Patti Carroll <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Braille breastfeeding Information-
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My friend Betsy Grenavitch, in Atlanta, is the co-ordinator for the
"visually impaired" division of La Leche League. She is a LLLL and has
nursed her own three children. The best way to get braille /books on tape
is to have the mom call her directly. She says she has about 30 books on
tape and a few in braille.... Including "Womanly Art Of Breastfeeding",
William Sears books and more.....
The # is 404-297-9313. The shipping is free to a visually impaired
person..but they have to pay for the call. Betsy is also available for phone
counseling to visually impaired moms. She has the only pump rental station
run by a blind person in the USA...as far as we know. She is also happy to
talk to LC's about how to help these moms.
Patti Carroll, RN, IBCLC
CDC/ATSDR Lactation Support Program
Near Atlanta, Georgia....USA
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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 09:50:14 EDT
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
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From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Bf criminals
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In a message dated 10/26/1999 7:33:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:
<< In Deptford, S. London, a young mother began breastfeeding her baby in
front of a male sales assistant in Embassy Leisurewear in Deptford High
Street, so ostentatiously, reports the Greenwich News Shopper, that the
poor man was embarrassed into looking away. When he turned back round again
the woman and her friends had nicked half the stock and left. >>
Who says you can't bf and work? :D
Elisheva Urbas
NYC
I guess next time he won't look away!
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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 10:17:31 EDT
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: "nicked off"
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When I chaperoned a HS group through Europe, we were constantly told to
beware of pickpockets. On one occasion, the group was using a city bus to
travel to a site.
One of the passengers was a lovely young woman breastfeeding her baby with
shirt wide open and the entire breast exposed. While the kids stared, her
non-holding-the-baby hand was free below the infant and she was "fondling" a
the wallet of a fellow passenger! I alerted the kids as I told her to put
the wallet back. She didn't speak English, but got the message and exited
the bus at the next stop.
Another reason to BF?????
tina
ohio
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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 10:20:32 -0500
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: "D. McCallister" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: always never mindsets serving a useful purpose
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Okay... I stand corrected, but as you said, "the exception doesn't always prove the rule." Neither do your exceptions prove your rule.
So I'll amend myself, and state that, "with certain exceptions, always/never mindsets don't always serve a useful purpose."
How's that?
Debbie McCallister
Louisville, Kentucky
> Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 15:52:55 EDT
> From: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: always never mindsets serving a useful purpose
>
> "always" use car seats, the exception being a life and death emergency, not
> just "don't feel like it"? "always" try to use breastmilk and if that is not
> possible use pumped milk or donor milk, "never" use formula just because its
> free, convenient, less of a hassle, seems "normal," "everyone does it," how
> about only in a true life or death emergency where no other milk is
> available? gosh, i think i could come up with a few more.
>
> of course, the person who takes the baby in the car and doesn't have an
> accident feels that it is safe. the person who uses formula and has a healthy
> baby feels fine about using it, and the person who has no problems with
> pacifier use can endorse it. but the exception doesn't always prove the rule.
>
> carol brussel IBCLC
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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 07:57:59 -0700
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: John Vanek <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: Pacific Bell Internet Services
Subject: "No Finer Investment"
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Please help. The VCR ate my tape during my prenatal breastfeeding class
last night. It is from the royal college of midwifery and called, "No
Finer Investment." I know that Childbirth Graphics doesn't carry it.
Thanks, Dawn RN, IBCLC
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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 11:20:38 EDT
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
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From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Blind Mother
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Esther Wiles writes:<<In the next month or so we expect to have on our floor
a mother who is blind.
We would like to have information for her.
Does anyone know where we may obtain information in braille or does anyone
already have information for their practice and willing to share?
Thanks.....
Esther Wiles, RN, IBCLC. from Michigan>>
We have a local blind mother who was an active Le Leche League mom until her
child was about two years old. She found taped books very helpful, and
ordered many through our local area or through LLLI. When her child was
born, her wonderful husband was very active in helping her to latch and be
comfortable with nursing. As a working mother, she later used a yogurt cup
(she knew how much it held) to measure expressed breast milk that she later
put into a bottle. All in all, she felt breastfeeding was much easier than
dealing with ABM. Every LLL Area maintains a tape library that she can
borrow from, and LLLI has a list if books on tape. Currently, we have another
blind mother who just started attending our group, and I'm sure she would be
happy to answer any other questions. Please email me you'd like to talk
further!
Kari Miller, LLLL, IBCLC
In Colorado Springs, where it's in the high 70's today!
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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 08:35:44 -0700
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
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From: Monique Schaefers <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: request for information
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I said I would ask 2000 of my closest lactation pals. Please share your
information directly with Katherine. mailto:[log in to unmask]
> I'm doing a little research for a Nursing Mother's Counsel
> newsletter. Does anyone have a handy list of URLs for the WHO code,
> Nestle's violations, and a list of Nestle products?
>
> Also, isn't someone collecting advertising violations?
>
> Thanks for any help you can give -- this article will educate 50 or
> 100 breastfeeding advocates who are essentially unaware of the
> boycott and the issues!
>
> Katherine
>
> (back in school and busy!! still nursing Torin age 4.5 and Paxton
> almost 18 mos)
--
Monique
Noah 6/97, ?? edd 6/17/00
[log in to unmask]
It will be gone before you know it. The fingerprints on the wall appear
higher and higher. Then suddenly they disappear.
Dorothy Evslin
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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 11:45:09 EDT
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Need Breastfeeding information in Braille
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Esther -
I helped a blind mom a couple of years ago. Breastfeeding is so much easier
than artificial feeding for a blind mom. You might also recommend a sling
for her. Easy for her to get the baby in and out of - no leg holes or
buckles - and it will make carrying the baby around so much easier.
LLLI has breastfeeding material on audio tape and in Braille. Go to their
web site at www.lalecheleague.org.
Cynthia D. Payne, LLLL, IBCLC
In the Berkshires of western Massachusetts
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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 12:37:26 -0400
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
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From: Janice Berry <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Penelope Leach vs. Gary Ezzo
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FYI:
High noon for nurturers
Penelope Leach faces off with the Ezzos in a nasty turf war. Someone needs a
spanking.
By Shelley Emling
http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/1999/10/26/leach/index.html
Janice Berry
Columbus, OH
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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 12:36:28 -0400
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
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From: Kimberly Pincus <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: breastfeeding connection
Subject: Re: chemo
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Kathy Dettwyler wrote:
>
> Hey guys, you're all giving me the heebie-jeebies with your posts about
> chemo. Remember, I'm gonna walk in that room Friday morning (8 am CDT) and
> ask them to inject me with these toxins! :)
>
> Should also point out that on the breast cancer email list (*of course*
> there's a list for that too!!), there are two women who had chemotherapy
> *while they were pregnant*, and they and their kids are fine. Don't ask me
> how THAT works, but if pregnant women can TAKE chemo, then surely it won't
> hurt a lactating woman to administer it.
>
> This is not to be construed as medical advice.
>
> Kathy Dettwyler, "chemo virgin" for five more days
>
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Just my opion but, I was sure glad that my daghter was weaned already
when I had to do the chemo. She did nurse 2years and 7 months mind you.
I sure didn't feel well enough to take care of them somedays let alone
provide her food. Somedays weren't bad but some where. Remember not
something I won't do again if had too don't plan on letting CA get the
best of me. That was 2 years ago , we are doing great and a don't want
to forget that. I wear my pink ribbon mst days to remind people we can
get through it. My kids get tired of seeing the pink ribbon somedays
they say don't wear that today, don't tell people. Sometimes I leave it
home but, sometimes I insist because I tell them its part of me and I
can't just forget it. If I can encourage one person to do a self breats
exam and find it early and be treated sucessfully its worth it. Keep
thinking positive thought it does help you get through it. I'm looking
forward to going back to school to get my BSN and then on to Midwifery
School. Never let your dreams go!!
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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 10:53:48 -0600
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
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From: Patricia Blomme <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Doh!!!! fit Pregnancy
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I have just read my post and can see that the ol'brain cells are not in
line. I will have to write again to the company to clearify my opps "ABM is
equal to that of formula" uhhh DUH yeah!!!!
Feeling like a fool. And needing to proof read THREE times from now on.
Patricia in Calgary
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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 18:55:02 +0200
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<[log in to unmask]>
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From: Rachel e-mail <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: BF curriculum in nursing school
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Inspired by the reports of the woeful state of BF curriculum content in =
another health profession, I want to share this with the list.
I am a proud graduate of the University of Washington School of Nursing, =
class of 1982.
We had a ten week course on general nutrition our first year in which =
maternal and child nutrition was covered well, in an introductory way. =
The same instructor, Bonnie Worthington Roberts, offered an elective =
course, also ten weeks, solely on maternal-child nutrition. Inspired by =
the content in the general (required) course, I signed up. Twenty years =
later I have yet to learn anything which overturns the basic knowledge I =
gained in this course, and I am actively seeking information on BF =
daily. It is without a doubt the most useful, and most used, course of =
my professional education. Among other things, we were shown the film =
"Bottle Babies", and Dr. Worthington Roberts still stands out for me as =
a very strong advocate of practices which protect and promote BF. We =
learned the anatomy of the breast, techniques for starting BF =
successfully, nutritional needs of mothers (pregnancy and lactation) and =
babies, properties of human milk, political barriers to BF success-- it =
was an incredible course. I had my first child a couple of years later =
and tried out the theories I had learned, and guess what? they worked! =
It helped to give birth in an institution that in 1981 had made a =
conscious decision not to participate in formula marketing and also had =
policies which made it easy to succeed at BF (no limit on frequency or =
duration of feeds from birth, no separation of mother and baby), but I =
feel what I learned in nursing school was my ballast as a new mother and =
I have never stopped being grateful for it.
In the mid-80's I moved here, and went to midwifery school a couple of =
years later. I had become a volunteer peer counsellor in the meantime, =
and was the only one in my class who honestly didn't hear anything new =
in the two hours or so of lecture time we had on BF there. I was also =
the only one still BF my 8 month old son, while a third of the class had =
children of similar ages. Most of them had weaned them in anticipation =
of the demands of school. That just never occurred to me.
Hope I haven't bored anyone with this rose-colored narrative...
Rachel Myr
now blooming where I have been transplanted in Norway, a BF-friendly =
country which suits me fine
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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 20:20:10 -0700
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
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From: Deborah V BARR <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: breastmilk/HIV
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Hi all -
I'm trying to follow up on a rumor. Is there new info out about HIV and
breastmilk that would change OSHA's and CDC's recommendations that
breastmilk is not a potentially infectious material? It may have been
based on something published in the MMWR (I already searched there
and couldn't find anything)....
HELP!!
Please cc privately as I am still no mail. Thank you.
Debi VanderMey Barr
Breastfeeding Promotion Coordinator
Oregon WIC Program
mailto:[log in to unmask]
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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 15:41:48 -0400
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
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<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Cindy Curtis, RN, IBCLC" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: "No Finer Investment"
Comments: cc: [log in to unmask]
I believe that Childbirth Graphics does carry it, I just ordered it
today!!!!!
Cindy
Cindy Curtis,RN,IBCLC
http://www.iGive.com/html/ssi.cfm?cid=5731&mid=68196
Turn Everyday Online Shopping Into Philanthropy
mailto:[log in to unmask]
http://www.erols.com/cindyrn
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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 15:49:38 EDT
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
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From: "Laura Hart, RN, BSN, IBCLC" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Where does this pediatrician get his information?
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In a message dated 10/24/99 5:04:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:
Suzanne recently asked:
<< Just where do some of the people go to
medical school? Do they not read the text books or not pay attention in
class? >>
I would also ask, do they not read their peer reviewed journals either? At
our hospital-based childbirth classes we have a pediatrician speak on the
last night of class. The one who spoke recently is one that I have had
several discussions with in the past. He started his talk about newborns with
information (or I should say Misinformation) about breastfeeding. He told the
expectant mothers to wash their nipples before & after every feeding and also
mentioned that some women don't get their COLOSTRUM until the 3rd day post
partum. Therefore, of course, these women MUST supplement with formula until
that time. But, since he is "very supportive of breastfeeding" (those are his
words) , he made a point of telling them to always put the baby to the breast
before giving the BOTTLE! He also cautioned them about feeding the baby for
long periods of time (like 45-60 minutes at a feeding) as this can cause a
breast infection. This particular ped has his own beliefs & opinions about
certain subjects & is not open to anyone else's information.
I did give the class the correct information and suggested that some of them
may want to attend our breastfeeding class taught by an expert in the field
of lactation. Thank goodness, we have very good attendance at our
breastfeeding classes.
Laura Hart
yet again frustrated in Winter Park, Florida
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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 15:51:39 EDT
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
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From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Janet Malo
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Will Janet Malo please email me. I have lost your contact info.
Nancy Wight MD, FAAP, IBCLC
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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 17:13:51 -0400
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
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<[log in to unmask]>
From: Alicia <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Good editorial from Local BF Advocate
Comments: To: [log in to unmask], [log in to unmask],
[log in to unmask], [log in to unmask]
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Thought there might be few of you interested in this. I'm posting this to
a few different lists so please excuse the multiple copies on different
lists.
Doraine Bailey is an incredible asset to my community (Lexington, KY).
Here's an editorial she wrote in response to a recent press release/story
about some research done at the University of KY about DHA in breastmilk.
Here's the URL:
http://WWW.Kentuckyconnect.com/heraldleader/news/102599/commentarydocs/1025Baile
y-response.htm
Alicia Rudin, LLLL in the Bluegrass (Lexington, KY)
mailto:[log in to unmask]
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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 11:04:52 -0400
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
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From: "Catherine Watson Genna, IBCLC" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: research shows IgE of allergic nursing mothers is higher
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This study would be far more reliable if it focused on the exclusivity
of breastfeeding. It is very possible that the infants with the highest
IgE levels were mixed fed. The other component that was neglected was
the diet of the mother. If an allergic mother were following a
hypoallergenic diet or a rotation diet, her own IgE levels should be
lower. Then there's also environment - which mothers were keeping a low
dust environment, and which had shag carpet and tons of stuffed animals
collecting allergens in their homes?
On the other hand, it's possible that the study identified a real
effect. Perhaps (and this is wild speculation) the immune stimulating
effects of breastmilk apply to IgE as well if mom is not being
adequately treated for her allergies and has high levels of IgE.
Perhaps the answer is to treat allergy more agressively while promoting
exclusive breastfeeding.
--
Catherine Watson Genna, IBCLC New York City mailto:[log in to unmask]
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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 20:03:52 +0000
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
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From: Patricia L Donley <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Augmentation (long)
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I am working with a mom who I need help with. As a (mostly) lurker, I'll
first introduce myself. I work for a large pediatric practice as a
breastfeeding educator (I am a new IBCLC, too, but because there are
other breastfeeding educators in our practice who aren't IBCLCs, I'm not
supposed to identify myself as such, as that would make them look
inferior--don't ask!).
Part of my job involves doing hospital rounds, meeting with all new
mothers who are bringing their babies to our practice, assisting them
with initiation of breastfeeding. But not too much. There is a current
struggle going on with how much assistance "we" are to give while they
are still inpatients. The hospital has a few lactation consultants who
get the same amount of pay as everyone else, and get to see breastfeeding
couplets in addition to their (full!) assignments.
Anyway...This mom had subareolar saline implants placed 9 years ago. The
breast surgeon assured her at the time that she would be able to
breastfeed if she so chose. This is curious to me. Her scars are on the
lower edge of her areolae (3 o'clock to 9 o'clock). My thinking is, no
matter how you cut it (pun intended), the sinuses/ducts would have had to
be severed, at least on the lower half of her breasts. Am I missing
something here? Could/would the surgeon do a very superficial incision
and slip the implant between the sinuses and/or behind the muscle and
then fill with saline?
So I'm thinking, worse case scenario, bottom half of breasts produce
milk, but milk has nowhere to go. Would stasis eventually "shut down"
lower half of breast? Could mom still nurse since upper half of breasts
would compensate? Would this constant stimulation be detrimental?
Here's the kicker. As I am talking with mom, I ask her if she had breast
changes in pregnancy. Nope, not a bit! No fullness. No areolar color
changes. Nada. Interestingly, she had a miscarriage at 12 weeks a few
years ago, and she DID have breast changes then. Hmm...
Now I know we have two major issues to deal with here. Are they related?
I would suspect not, since she did have breast changes with her last
pregnancy. I know from my reading that lack of breast changes during
pregnancy can be an indicator of possible supply problems, a "red flag"
of sorts.
I feel like I'm skating on thin ice here. I spoke with the nurses taking
care of this mom yesterday and today. Both thought these issues had
nothing to do with how they would care for her in the hospital. No
lactation consultants on today, of course.
I observed latch today. Mom handles baby well and just seems so in love
with him. Audible swallow, and deep, wide latch. Had never even given the
possibility of implants being an issue with breastfeeding a second
thought. On her prenatal history, she had answered "none" to the question
of surgery. Embarrassed? Didn't consider it a "real" operation?
On top of all this (because of all this?...), baby has lost 10% of
birthweight today, so we're bringing him into office tomorrow for weight
check. Yesterday he was circ'd and slept alot. Today nursed hourly for a
five hour stretch, then relaxed into a deep sleep (this was AFTER that
weight loss was documented--I bet a pre-discharge weight this afternoon
would have shown a gain!). Spoke with pediatrician who did not want to
hear about this woman's breast surgery or her lack of breast changes. He
is breastfeeding friendly, but I suspect he may not know (or feel the
need to know) the implications of this information.
I wondered today about a supplementer at the breast if weight is still
low tomorrow and mom desires this, but am not sure if this baby should
even be at the breast if being there will stimulate production of milk
that can't get out.
Can anyone help me out here? I'm grasping at straws amongst people who do
not think these issues are important, and I wonder if my recent
achievement of IBCLC status has made me read too much into this case.
Thanks for your help!
Trish Donley,RN,ND,IBCLC
Allentown, PA
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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 20:13:18 EDT
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
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From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: interesting case
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the interesting case i posted about recently (older baby, no weight gain for
two months, reflux, various feeding problems etc.) has an update for all who
are interested. i had not heard from the mother for a couple of weeks,
although i left messages. she checked in today to report that he is gaining
slowly but steadily, nurses 4 - 5 times per 24 hours, but is quite
enthusiastic about solids.
i had talked to her several times about introducing solids and offering high
density foods, not using just canned baby foods, etc. although it took her a
while, she finally got with this program, which she reports is "totally
different" from how she fed her older child (cautious, slow introduction of
fruits and vegetables from jars). it must be working. i am so relieved. this
is a classic example of the importance of "feed the baby." but it took hours
and hours and hours of support and patient education (of the mother).she told
me "i can't believe i am still breastfeeding, with all the problems that i
have had."
me neither. one by one, one mother and baby at a time (unless its twins, like
the adorable ones i saw yesterday!).
carol brussel IBCLC
breathing a big sigh of relief in record-breaking warm denver, CO - snow? -
ha!
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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 17:42:36 PDT
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Denise Punger <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: bf in medical school
Comments: To: [log in to unmask]
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Re:tug-of-war between doctors and nurses/LC as a barrier to physicians
learning about bf in medical school.
I don't think tug-of-war existed because nobody knew enough about lactation
to even have an opinion. Drug/formula reps paying for conferences probably
is the main reason breastfeeding education is not offered in medical school.
I did not even know what a lactation consultant was until I had my first
baby.Over a year after I finished residency. I did not know what a doula was
until my second pregnancy.
Denise Punger MD FAAFP
Florida
http:doctor.medscape.com?denisepungermd
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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 20:33:30 -0400
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From: Leitzinger <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Residency program
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Dear Lactnetters:
I’m so glad you all brought up how much education physicians receive about
lactation and breastfeeding. I have a request. I’m an RN and new IBCLC
(still in a state of shock!) in a hospital based program. Last year our
hospital started a family practice residency program. At some time during
there OB or NICU rotation it is "suggested" that they go on rounds with me.
If they have the time or interest they spend some time in our out pt clinic.
Here’s my dilemma; unfortunately not all residents are enlightened soul and
do not understand the importance of breastfeeding. They can always find
excuses to ditch me. Others are disappointed that they get so little time
with our department. This brings me to my request which is two fold. Would
any of you who currently work with a residency program share how it was
implemented, what are the requirements i.e.: how long they work with you, is
it a separate rotation and so on. The second part of my request is for you
Doc.s. What do you feel is important for these new physicians to learn? How
much time do you feel would be beneficial to them? How should I approach
the powers to be at our institute ( some physicians are still having a hard
time with the CNMs teaching the residents let alone an RN even with a whole
bunch of new letters after my name!)
Thanks for your help
Toni Leitzinger RN IBCLC
Sunny but not so warm Florida
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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 20:35:53 -0500
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: "Denny Rice, RN IBCLC, Dallas TX" <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: @Home Network Member
Subject: Glutamic acidemia
Comments: To: [log in to unmask], [log in to unmask]
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I was interested in the posts on this disorder because I thought I
remembered reading something about this. After some searching, I
realized that I recognized the term from my research on HELLP syndrome.
(a serious complication of pregnancy)
Women who develop severe preeclampsia or eclampsia have abnormally high
levels of this in their blood. It is suspected of being a cause of the
seizures that can occur with eclampsia.
Also, a deficiency in another digestive enzyme was recently reported as
a cause in some SIDs deaths. One is responsible for digesting fat, the
other protein.
My point and questions are: did this mom have PIH? and Dr. Saenz, do
think that this baby may be at elevated risk for SIDs?
I realize that this is a bit off topic, but not too far I hope.
--
Denny Rice, RN, IBCLC
Dallas Texas USA
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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 21:42:31 -0700
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Becky <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Residency program
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Toni,
Kuddos!!! Residents have a hard time understanding anything unless you
show them a "need to know". Here's one way: (1) there were about five
questions on the Family Practice Board exam this last time on
breastfeeding, and about five more that were closely related; (2) most FP
residents hope to practice in an "upper-middle-class" private practice wh=
en
they get out, regardless of whether that's urban or rural. These are the
patients most likely to breastfeed. Studies show that most healthcare
decisions for an entire family are made by the mother, so it behooves the=
m
for the sake of feeding their own kids in the future, to learn about and =
be
supportive of breastfeeding.
Regarding the curriculum itself:
The interns have a four-hour workshop that's part didactic, part
interactive on breastfeeding (required), in which they learn the risks of
artificial feeding (the common and the lesser-known), the basics of how t=
o
evaluate latch, how to tell baby's getting enough, the common problems an=
d
treatments, how to read Tom Hale's book, the difference between various
types of breastpumps, etc. This also gives them some info on LC's and wh=
at
they do.
Since we have such a large WIC patient pouplation and WIC in our state is
really pushing breastfeeding, a fair number of our clinic patients
breastfeed (about 30%), so they get some exposure in continuity clinic.
Then there's the elective rotation they can do with me as second or
third-year residents. A whole month of seeing consults in my clinic,
reading, interactive computer modules, etc. Have a resident doing this i=
n
December!
Hope this helps,
Becky Saenz, MD, IBCLC
Assistant Professor of Family Medicine
Assistant FP Residency Director
Univ of MS Med Ctr
Jackson, MS =20
At 08:33 PM 10/26/99 -0400, you wrote:
>Dear Lactnetters:
>
>
>I=92m so glad you all brought up how much education physicians receive =
about
>lactation and breastfeeding. I have a request. I=92m an RN and new IBCLC
>(still in a state of shock!) in a hospital based program. Last year our
>hospital started a family practice residency program. At some time durin=
g
>there OB or NICU rotation it is "suggested" that they go on rounds with =
me.
>If they have the time or interest they spend some time in our out pt cli=
nic.
>Here=92s my dilemma; unfortunately not all residents are enlightened sou=
l and
>do not understand the importance of breastfeeding. They can always find
>excuses to ditch me. Others are disappointed that they get so little t=
ime
>with our department. This brings me to my request which is two fold. Wo=
uld
>any of you who currently work with a residency program share how it was
>implemented, what are the requirements i.e.: how long they work with you=
, is
>it a separate rotation and so on. The second part of my request is for =
you
>Doc.s. What do you feel is important for these new physicians to learn? =
How
>much time do you feel would be beneficial to them? How should I approac=
h
>the powers to be at our institute ( some physicians are still having a h=
ard
>time with the CNMs teaching the residents let alone an RN even with a wh=
ole
>bunch of new letters after my name!)
>
>Thanks for your help
>
>Toni Leitzinger RN IBCLC
>Sunny but not so warm Florida
>
> ***********************************************
>The LACTNET mailing list is powered by L-Soft's renowned
>LISTSERV(R) list management software together with L-Soft's LSMTP(TM)
>mailer for lightning fast mail delivery. For more information, go to:
>http://www.lsoft.com/LISTSERV-powered.html
>
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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 22:51:46 EDT
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Christine Betzold <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Teaching MD's
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1. What is normal
a. Breastfeeding baby normals
b. assessment of the infants mouth and mom's breast
c. latch-on and positioning
2. AAP guidelines
3. The myths-start with Dr. Newman's handout
4. The risks of Artificial feeding-Dr. Newman's handout
5. Show them Dr. Hales and the LLL Answer book
6. Talk about sore nipples, starting out right, colic, insufficient milk,
and thrush.
7. Lastly, show them the first attachment film. Chris Betzold MSN NOP
CLE
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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 23:01:13 EDT
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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<< I am a new IBCLC, too, but because there are
other breastfeeding educators in our practice who aren't IBCLCs, I'm not
supposed to identify myself as such, as that would make them look
inferior--don't ask!). >>
patricia, this really stinks! if one of the doctors doesn't actually have a
medical license, are you supposed to not tell anyone? you should be the IBCLC
and the others should be "nurse educators" or something that does NOT give
the impression that they are board certified specialists. you worked hard for
that certificate.
really!
carol brussel IBCLC
that's "board certified" and still not a nurse
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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 23:32:20 -0400
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Patrica Young <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Augmentation (long)
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Dear Pat, monitor closely, as usual - use the out-put as a guesstimate of
input. Mom should be keeping a record of dirty and wet diapers. Weigh
frequently. The lower half of breast will involute if milk unable to get
out. I would think she ought to be able to make enough milk with 2 halfs,
just like some moms who only have one whole to work with. You just want to
be watching closely in early weeks to be sure everything is progressing.
If supply ends up not being adequate would probably be a good time to use
a lactation supplementer (catheter-type). But I'd give it a good chance to
succeed and don't assume it will or won't work. Human body is amazing :-)
Sincerely, Pat in SNJ
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Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 00:26:14 -0400
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Lori Peters <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: breastfeeding classes and epidurals
Hi List,
I have gotten into trouble again for something I said in a class. In the
community I live in, whenever my teaching does not jive with what makes
things easier for the Docs, I hear about it...and most often am forced to
change what i say.
BTW...my teaching is so wishy-washy and watered down already because of all
the restrictions I am almost to the point where i just want to say "do what
ever you doc says...he knows best and call me when you have problems!!!!"
The latest infraction was a mention in class that any meds including
epidurals have the potential to effect the initial nursing experience.
I have the documentation to back my claim....what i am looking for is info
on what everyone else who teaches breastfeeding classes or child birth ed
is saying. Am I being difficult as the MDs claim?
This situation was complicated by the fact that the mom in question who
told her MD about the info I gave was a 46 year old 1st time mom expecting
twins.....she came to class saying she did not want an epidural, before we
even discussed meds and her opionion did not change after class, however it
is this MD's standard practice to give all moms epidurals when they are
delivering twins "just in case". In the end it was a moot point as she
deliverd by scheduled C/S.
Thanks in advance
Lori Peters RN/IBCLC.....hospital based practice.......Kenosha, WI
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Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 12:41:08 +0200
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Regine Gresens <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Pasteurisation of a HIV-posiitive mother'milk
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Dear lactnetters,
first of all I want to thank all those who answered my former questions
regarding HIV-infektion and breastfeeding. Based on the information I gave
to this woman, who is now 37weeks pregnant and has a noticable
HIV-antibodies for 10 years now and a very low virus load and an excellent
immun status, she is now planing to pump her milk and holder-pasteurize it
(perhaps for a year). She is taking retrovir right now to protect the baby
and will have a CS in 1,5 weeks. I also just talked to a pediatrician who is
willing prescribe a doublepump and to look at the baby when they are home.
Only the clinicians still need to be convinced that this is safe and
practical, it seems they have never heard before of this possibility.
Also I would like to give this mother some more instructions how to best
handle the pumping and especially the pasteurization.
Therefore I would very much appreciate any information on the safety of
pasteurization, as it is recommended for milk banking. I tried to get the
guidelines for milk banks, but could not get a hold of, yet.
Also if anyone knows of a technique or a tool to safely pasteurize at home,
I would be very thankful.
Or could anyone give me the name or eMail-address of a mother who has done
this too?
Last but not least someone mentioned to me that Marion Thompson of LLLI has
got some informal information for HIV-infected women. Unfortunately I could
not find out her eMail-address, I tried through LLL but never got an answer.
Please help fast since time runs, preferably by private eMail
TIA,
Regine Gresens, IBCLC
midwife and lactation consultant in private practice,
Hamburg, Germany
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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 06:46:11 -0400
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From: Patrica Young <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: breastfeeding classes and epidurals
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Dear Lori, 30 + years ago when the childbirth education movement started in
the US, many of us formed small groups of interested parents.These groups
were formed because dad was excluded from the birth, mom was separated from
her baby and we all know what the typical one week hospital stay did for
BF.
These groups sponsored very consumer oriented childbirth classes. These
classes were successful and brought about many changes in the hospital type
deliveries (re: dads in delivery room, LDRs etc). The classes were then
co-opted by the hospitals and have become what you see and hear now,
exactly what the physicians want mom and dad to hear.
I've said it before and I will say it again, it is time for a new
childbirth revolution! Parents are being sold a bill of goods, just like
we were 30-40 years ago- that dr knows best. And you see what we get -
unempowered women, dads as an afterthought or spectator, gorky babies who
can't figure out what to do at the breast. The only improvement I see is
that most babies get to the breast quicker to find out they don't know what
to do with their mouth! (As opposed to 24 hours delay to the breast 40
years ago)
Childbirth classes need to be offered by independent (of the hospital and
docs) qualified instructors.
They need to be off the hospital premises. They need to be consumer
oriented. I don't think many people have given a lot of thought to how
tied to the childbirth "industry" classes have become. But they are
watered down pap serving the wrong masters.
Have to get off my soapbox now, the air is thin up here, I have a cold and
it's making me cough :-( Sincerely, Pat in SNJ
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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 06:47:20 -0400
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From: Patrica Young <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Jan Riordan
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If someone would put me in touch with Jan Riordan ASAP I would really
appreciate it. Sincerely, Pat in SNJ
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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 06:57:33 -0400
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Patrica Young <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: binding/loss
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Dear Anne, one of the biggest consequences of abruptly weaning like this is
the prolonged sadness, regret, blow to self-esteem,
major sense of loss, and grief. 36 years after weaning my son like this I
am still in touch with these feelings whenever reminded of that time. The
regret and anger really comes when you discover that it wasn't necessary.
I've heard others mention what women in their 70s & 80s say about
situations like this. I think part of it is because instinctively we know
that nursing our babies is part of the whole package of being female, not
an option to use or discard as whims, customs or misinformation may
indicate. Oops really must put this soapbox away. sincerely, Pat in SNJ
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Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 07:40:27 -0400
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From: "Melissa V. Kirsch" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Augmentation (Long)
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Can these hcps spell defendant, if this baby suffers ill-effects from
dehydration?(BTW, Trish do you work for Allentown practice that publishes
articles in a Phila. kids newspaper--full of erroneous BF info.?)
Melissa Vance, JD
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Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 09:18:11 EDT
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addresses
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Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 08:41:49 -0500
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Cindy Anderson <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: BF curriculum in nursing school
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I have been interested in this topic for quite a long time as an educator =
of undergraduate Nursing students. I'm sure you are well aware of some of =
my students interest and involvement with this list..your support is much =
appreciated!
I know that my students get consistent, progressive breastfeeding =
education throughout their entire curriculum, provided by two faculty who =
are both IBCLC's. I also had the opportunity to evaluate the impact of =
this education on students beliefs, attitudes and intention to support =
breastfeeding during their education. I am working with an undergraduate =
student who came up with the idea, as well as Dr. Susan Henly from the =
University of Minnesota who has a long history of breastfeeding research.
We studied students in one class from the time they were sophomores (with =
no breastfeeding formal education ) through their senior year. We sampled =
them once per semester and measured the impact of their education. I am =
presently preparing for the last sample to be obtained, so I do not have =
final results as yet, but the results to date are primarily as I'd =
expected. They begin the program with attitudes, beliefs and knowledge =
similar to that of the general university student population (studied and =
published earlier). Their attitudes, beliefs and knowledge improved with =
every sampling to date, but their intention to support breastfeeding =
declined in the second sample after getting their first didactic and =
clinical knowledge. My personal feeling is that once they learned about =
breastfeeding, they felt ill prepared (novices) to support breastfeeding =
adequately. This intention measure improved with the next sampling after =
more classroom/clinical and I'm waiting to see how the next round goes.
Needless to say, this is exciting work for me since it has such direct =
impact on what I do. It also supports the inclusion of this content in =
the Nursing curriculum and has implications across health professions in =
general.
I will be presenting the preliminary findings on Nov 9 in San Diego (with =
my student) at the Sigma Theta Tau International Biennial Convention and =
am excited to share these encouraging, though small, results!
I hope to publish the final report and will let you know if we get any =
takers!
Cindy Anderson, MS, WHNP, IBCLC
University of North Dakota
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Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 10:24:12 EDT
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Barbara Latterner <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: New LACTnetter's Introduction
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Dear LACTnetters:
I am thrilled to finally to finaaly be a member of LACTNET!!!(has taken
me awhile to join the electronic world-I still have a rotary phone!!). My
name is Barbara Latterner;am an IBCLC, since 1996; and RN with past
experience in Peds (few years) and Psychiatric Nursing (many); former LLL
Leader-thanks to them and their powerful influence over the years, am IBCLC
today. I'm in private practice as LC; member lactation consortium, Media
Watch coord. as of 2000, (again); have 3 daughters, 24, 16 and 10 yrs. (all
BF, last 2 for many years); live in Brewster.NY. I've already read many
postings over past two days and love it as I knew I would!! I promise to try
my hardest not to make mistakes (the "welcome rules" scared me I admit!) but
I'm beginning menopause, can't I use that as a defense lest I error?? (just
kidding!!)
Hope this isn't too long or I'll be starting out on the wrong foot. I so
look forward to all I can learn and share with all of you. Thank you to K.
Bruce and K. Auerbach, et all for providing such an excellant resource of
info and sharing!!
Warmly, Barbara
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Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 09:44:09 -0500
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: "Kerri J. Bundy" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: non-nutritive sucking
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With the debate over where a baby might do their non-nutritive sucking
continuing, I thought this abstract might be interesting. I got it from
the Touch Research Institute page. They have lots of interesting
information.
Still learning and apprectiating the complexity of humans,
Kerri Bundy
Uvnas-Moberg, K., Widstrom, A. M., Marchini, G., and
Winberg, J. (1987).Release of GI hormones in mother and
infant by sensory stimulation. [Review]. Acta Paediatrica
Scandinavica ,76(6), 851-860. 1
Abstract: It is well established that sensory stimulation is of
great importance for the growth of and for the physiological
and psychological development of infants. Supplementary
sensory stimulation such as non-nutritive sucking and tactile
stimulation has been shown to increase the growth rate and
the maturation of premature infants. In human neonates
non-nutritive sucking has a vagally mediated influence on the
levels of some gastrointestinal hormones. In animal
experiments afferent electrical stimulations of the sciatic
nerves at low intensity leads to an activation of the vagal
nerves and to a consequent release of vagally controlled
gastrointestinal hormones such as gastrin and
cholecystokinin. We therefore assume that both non-nutritive
sucking and tactile stimulation trigger the activity of sensory
nerves which leads to a release of vagally regulated gut
hormones. Since gut hormones stimulate gastrointestinal
motor and secretory activity and the growth of the
gastrointestinal tract, and enhance the glucose-induced
insulin release, they may contribute to the beneficial effects
on maturation and growth caused by sensory stimulation. In
the breast-feeding situation, the sucking of the child elicits
similar reflexes in the mother leading to an activation of the
maternal gut endocrine system and a consequent increase in
energy uptake. These data indicate that many types of
neurogenic reflexes induced in mother-infant interactions are
of importance for the energy economy of both mother and
child.
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Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 11:06:35 EDT
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Barbara Latterner <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: use of Reglan in first weeks of BF
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I'm currently working with mother of six day old male infant and she
questioned when to start Reglan to increase/maximize her milk production.
He is her third son, all of whom have had ankyloglossia, this baby included;
all have had frentomies-current infant at one day of age. This baby's
frentomy eased her nipple pain when she BF immediately after procedure, but
when seen yesterday and observed BFing had retracted tongue at times with
latch, always once began feeding, evidenced by some disconfort felt by Mom,
clicking and cheek dimpling;milk transfer noted;uncoordinated suck, only
maintains S/S/B twice before pause; intake measured via weights pre and
post-4cc R., 8cc,L.. Is supplementing with ABM, hasn't been able to pump
regularly as yet (instructed this is necessary), using SNS at breast or
finger feed; has difficulty expressing significant amt. as she did with 2nd
child who was FTT at 2 mos (with LC help, SNS use, went on to BF that babe
for 18 mos with min. ABM use; did use Reglan then with gd. results).
I feel she should give her body a chance to work on its' own by pumping after
each feed for several days and wait for Reglan use (did get very tired with
Reglan when used before), continue with Blessed Thistle and Fenugreek she's
taking (Newman's dose being used;3 caps ea.,3x's day) and work with improving
infant's sucking pattern while supplementing.
Any suggestions, thoughts on early use of Reglan would be appreciated.
She's convinced she won't have enough milk for this baby and I'm unsure since
she doesn't respond well to pump or hand expression (though hasn't had a
decent trial of any of these) and baby is currently such an ineffective
nurser.
Thank you!
Barbara Latterner, RN,IBCLC
Brewster, NY
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Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 08:39:07 -0700
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: "Melinda Hoskins, MS, RN, IBCLC" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Jan Riordan
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Jam's course at Wichita State has a web site at
http://www.wichita.edu/public/wsucofhp/n791/index.html
I believe there is an email link there.
Melinda Hoskins, MS, RN, IBCLC (hooray! 99)
-----Original Message-----
From: Lactation Information and Discussion
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Patrica Young
Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 1999 3:47 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Jan Riordan
If someone would put me in touch with Jan Riordan ASAP I would really
appreciate it. Sincerely, Pat in SNJ
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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 20:45:34 -0400
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Leslie White <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: severe mastitis with previous pregnancy
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I have a close friend who experienced severe mastitis during her third
pregnancy. She breastfed her first without problems for about a year.
With her second baby, she was hospitalized with severe mastitis at two
weeks. It recurred during the first two months and she threw in the
towel and used formula. When pregnant with her third, she was
determined to breastfeed and was dismayed when she developed mastitis
half way through the pregnancy. She successfully breastfed her baby for
four years and these are the things that made it work:
*She was very determined that would she breastfeed. Unfortunately, her
second (and only formula baby) developed allergies & asthma, so she felt
strongly about doing all she could for her next baby's health. *She
searched for and found a group of doctors who felt as she did about
breastfeeding and were willing to take her unusual case seriously. The
doctors worked together in a practice, so she could always find a doctor
in a pinch who would have access to her file. *While pregnant, she
began a prophylactic, low-dose course of antibiotics to prevent a
reoccurrence. She remained on antibiotics for several months
post-partum until she felt comfortable going off of them. She was in
close contact with her doctor(s) during this time. *She became intimate
with her breasts. She checked her breasts manually while breastfeeding
and always "massaged out" areas that felt "lumpy" where she thought she
might develop a blocked duct.
The good news is that she really had no problems at all, probably due to
her very conscientious breast care throughout. She lived in fear of
mastitis for many, many months but now feels a tremendous glow of
success at having overcome this challenge.
Leslie White, LLLL
Deep River, Ontario
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Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 18:04:21 +0200
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Rachel e-mail <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: update on mother with dimple nipples from July
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For those who recall this mother who had skinless areas on both nipples, =
a raging mastitis one week post partum and a failed BF experience with =
first baby:
She used limpet shells constantly to keep dimples everted, and applied =
anhydrous lanolin to the area several times daily. Pain disappeared =
rapidly, but skin still lacking at one month. Baby thriving and mother =
cautiously optimistic about BF. I last saw her about 6 weeks post =
partum and skin was starting to cover the raw areas.
She just phoned me to say that her breasts are in her own words =
"Perfect!". Baby is fully BF, and she stopped using lanolin two weeks =
ago but continued with the shells. A few days ago she grew tired of the =
constant leaking and has now retired the shells as well. Her skin is =
intact over the entire nipple, and although one still has a tendency to =
invert in the dimple between feeds, it is no problem during feeds. She =
is very pleased, and so am I!
Thanks again to those of you who sent me private e-mails on this case.
Rachel Myr
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Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 12:10:19 -0400
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Cathy Bargar <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: w/BF-friendly like this, who needs enemies?
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"(I am a new IBCLC, too, but because there are
other breastfeeding educators in our practice who aren't IBCLCs, I'm not
supposed to identify myself as such, as that would make them look
inferior--don't ask!)."
Whoah! What is *that*?! I know you said "don't ask", Patricia, but it seems
to me that that is highly unethical (on their part, to expect you to not
identify yourself correctly, not yours). Do you know anybody who would, for
example, want to go to a dentists' office where some of the "dentists" were
duly-certified dentists and others were just *saying* they were dentists and
*acting like* dentists, and you didn't know which was which?
"There is a current struggle going on with how much assistance "we" are to
give while they are still inpatients."
Yikes! And wait, there's more...
"Spoke with pediatrician who did not want to
hear about this woman's breast surgery or her lack of breast changes. He
is breastfeeding friendly, but I suspect he may not know (or feel the
need to know) the implications of this information."
I think (not that you asked, and I don't mean to offend!) that you are
working in a very breastfeeding-*hostile* environment! And, as one who's
been there, I commiserate. But it makes me very angry that both the peds
group and the hospital are passing themselves off as being BF-friendly.
Cathy Bargar RN IBCLC Ithaca NY
-----Original Message-----
From: Patricia L Donley [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 1999 4:04 PM
Subject: Augmentation (long)
I am working with a mom who I need help with. As a (mostly) lurker, I'll
first introduce myself. I work for a large pediatric practice as a
breastfeeding educator (I am a new IBCLC, too, but because there are
other breastfeeding educators in our practice who aren't IBCLCs, I'm not
supposed to identify myself as such, as that would make them look
inferior--don't ask!).
Part of my job involves doing hospital rounds, meeting with all new
mothers who are bringing their babies to our practice, assisting them
with initiation of breastfeeding. But not too much. There is a current
struggle going on with how much assistance "we" are to give while they
are still inpatients. The hospital has a few lactation consultants who
get the same amount of pay as everyone else, and get to see breastfeeding
couplets in addition to their (full!) assignments.
Anyway...This mom had subareolar saline implants placed 9 years ago. The
breast surgeon assured her at the time that she would be able to
breastfeed if she so chose. This is curious to me. Her scars are on the
lower edge of her areolae (3 o'clock to 9 o'clock). My thinking is, no
matter how you cut it (pun intended), the sinuses/ducts would have had to
be severed, at least on the lower half of her breasts. Am I missing
something here? Could/would the surgeon do a very superficial incision
and slip the implant between the sinuses and/or behind the muscle and
then fill with saline?
So I'm thinking, worse case scenario, bottom half of breasts produce
milk, but milk has nowhere to go. Would stasis eventually "shut down"
lower half of breast? Could mom still nurse since upper half of breasts
would compensate? Would this constant stimulation be detrimental?
Here's the kicker. As I am talking with mom, I ask her if she had breast
changes in pregnancy. Nope, not a bit! No fullness. No areolar color
changes. Nada. Interestingly, she had a miscarriage at 12 weeks a few
years ago, and she DID have breast changes then. Hmm...
Now I know we have two major issues to deal with here. Are they related?
I would suspect not, since she did have breast changes with her last
pregnancy. I know from my reading that lack of breast changes during
pregnancy can be an indicator of possible supply problems, a "red flag"
of sorts.
I feel like I'm skating on thin ice here. I spoke with the nurses taking
care of this mom yesterday and today. Both thought these issues had
nothing to do with how they would care for her in the hospital. No
lactation consultants on today, of course.
I observed latch today. Mom handles baby well and just seems so in love
with him. Audible swallow, and deep, wide latch. Had never even given the
possibility of implants being an issue with breastfeeding a second
thought. On her prenatal history, she had answered "none" to the question
of surgery. Embarrassed? Didn't consider it a "real" operation?
On top of all this (because of all this?...), baby has lost 10% of
birthweight today, so we're bringing him into office tomorrow for weight
check. Yesterday he was circ'd and slept alot. Today nursed hourly for a
five hour stretch, then relaxed into a deep sleep (this was AFTER that
weight loss was documented--I bet a pre-discharge weight this afternoon
would have shown a gain!). Spoke with pediatrician who did not want to
hear about this woman's breast surgery or her lack of breast changes. He
is breastfeeding friendly, but I suspect he may not know (or feel the
need to know) the implications of this information.
I wondered today about a supplementer at the breast if weight is still
low tomorrow and mom desires this, but am not sure if this baby should
even be at the breast if being there will stimulate production of milk
that can't get out.
Can anyone help me out here? I'm grasping at straws amongst people who do
not think these issues are important, and I wonder if my recent
achievement of IBCLC status has made me read too much into this case.
Thanks for your help!
Trish Donley,RN,ND,IBCLC
Allentown, PA
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Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 12:20:06 -0400
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Cathy Bargar <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: interesting case
Comments: To: [log in to unmask]
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"i had talked to her several times about introducing solids and offering
high
density foods..."
Like what? Not challenging, just curious what you mean. Like "table scraps",
as we always called it - real people-food made of more than 1 ingredient at
a time? Or do you have some special power-bars you recommend?
GLad the baby's gaining, and glad you were persistent in your
recommendations! Good job!
Cathy Bargar RN IBCLC Ithaca NY
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Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 13:03:16 -0400
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Cathy Bargar <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: what do MDs need to know?
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Lori -
No, you're not being "difficult" by sharing information in your classes!
It's just like everything else - how are women supposed to make informed
choices when they aren't given the information? And, hey, some "information"
(especially around birth/BFing/parenting issues) contradicts with other bits
of "information" - the docs need to get over it! Is this not also the
situation with other aspects of their practice as well?
Which brings me to the other thread that's pestering my mind: what should
doctors in a family practice or OB or peds know about BFing? Speaking only
for myself, as a nurse/IBCLC, here's my wish list:
1) know the basics of lactation anatomy & physiology, so they don't say
ridiculous things to their patients (like the baby "blowing air" into his
mother's breast, for crying out loud!).
2) understand the risks of ABM, and the reasons why breastmilk is important
to normal growth and development.
3) know where to look up what's known about specific meds/substances r/t
BFing (Hale, for example, Ruth Lawrence's phone resource, or even the AAP
table, as flawed as it is). And be aware that best practice, when faced with
something you aren't right up to date on, is not to say "you'll have to stop
BFing"!
4) recognize the indicators of adequate milk transfer, or absence of same.
At a very basic level (output, general appearance, growth, behaviour - the
same stuff we expect the new moms to learn within the first couple of days)
5) KNOW WHO TO CALL IF THERE'S A PROBLEM, or even a question, or if a mom's
questions are taking too much time, or if she seems "needy" or "anxious".
KNOW THAT NEITHER MOTHER NOR BABY IS WELL-SERVED BY A PIECE OF
MISINFORMATION TOSSED OFF BECAUSE THE DOCTOR DOESN'T IMMEDIATELY KNOW THE
ANSWER! We IBCLCs don't always have a ready, glib answer either, but we'll
research or confer or refer until we do, or till we find someone who does,
or at least till we have a variety of options to present.
I don't care if doctors know how to help with latch-on - I do want them to
recognize when a faulty latch may be causing a problem. I don't need to have
docs who will sit for hours with a distraught, weepy mother and a numbed
sleepy baby; I do need to have physicians who will refer to me. Don't need
the MD to be an expert; do need the MD to make an expert available. THAT'S
WHAT WE DO!! (yes, shouting! and not apologetic about it either!
I don't *think* that these few requirements are all that unreasonable or
difficult. Most of the time, BFing isn't a medical process. When an
endocrinologist has a pt. with a broken leg, s/he refers that pt. to the
ortho, at least for the "management" of that aspect of care.
And I hope that those of you on this list who have the "MD" letters after
your names know that I don't mean that *you* should have any less zeal for
helping women BF! It's those other ones I'd like to have know enough to not
give out stupid "advice", but to refer appropriately or look it up.
Cathy Bargar RN IBCLC Ithaca NY
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Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 13:47:38 EDT
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
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From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Homemade spermicide(not really bf related)
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This is not really breastfeeding related and certainly not intended to open
up some discussion on natural birth control. But, I have sort of exhausted my
other resources for this information.Do any of you midwife/herbalist natural
healing types have the recipe for homemade spermicide? It involves salt,
lemon cornstarch & water but in very specific ratios. I lost my copy.
PLEASE respond to me privately.
Thanks so much.
Tracy Kirschner, DC
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Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 13:53:19 -0500
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
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From: gima <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Internet help (Not B'feeding related)
Comments: To: [log in to unmask]
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I am giving up on my problematic Internet Service Provider(?).
I am considering Earthlink. Will anyone who has this provider let me know,
privately, of your experience with them? I know that I've seen earthlink in
some e-mail addresses, but can't see how to search for them.
Oh, the pain of changing servers! It takes so long to notify everyone.
TIA
Pat Gima, IBCLC
Milwaukee, Wisconsin
mailto:[log in to unmask]
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Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 15:19:13 EDT
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: "Karen Kerkhoff Gromada, MSN, RN, IBCLC" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: CE class info & epis
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Re: << The latest infraction was a mention in class that any meds including
epidurals have the potential to effect the initial nursing experience.
I have the documentation to back my claim....This situation was complicated
by the fact that the mom in question who told her MD about the info I gave
was a 46 year old 1st time mom expecting twins.....she came to class saying
she did not want an epidural, before we even discussed meds and her opionion
did not change after class, however it is this MD's standard practice to give
all moms epidurals when they are delivering twins "just in case". >>
You have research evidence. What evidence has the doc got? If he has good
evidence that epidurals are completely benign re: breastfeeding, then you
probably would want to say the data conflicts re: effect of epidurals on
initial breastfeeding. (Might want to mention that not all epidurals are
equal in terms of meds used, bolus vs. continuous, etc.) But I'd say any doc
who thinks he/she is supposed to be believed based on personal opinion vs.
research evidence is the one "being difficult"!
I'm unaware of any research evidence that rules out an unmedicated delivery
for a full-term, or close to term, twin pregnancy as long as the first twin
is vertex. I do think the mother should be made aware that if the 2nd twin is
not vertex there is a very good chance that the doc will have to go up and
get that 2nd twin. This is not comfortable! Most MOT would prefer being
anesthetized if that is a likely possibility. She could be given a light
general, but I don't think we could blame her for wanting an epi or saddle
block so she can be awake and aware.
Karen
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Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 15:19:22 EDT
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: "Karen Kerkhoff Gromada, MSN, RN, IBCLC" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: braille info
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Re: << Does anyone know where we may obtain information in braille or does
anyone already have informaton for their practice and willing to share? >>
In addition to resources from LLLI, there generally are community resources
for the vision-impaired at local, county or state levels. Some of these
agencies have services that can get almost any book put on tape. The mother
in your area may want to call the local health department or even "Welcome
Wagon" to find out of such. Contact the Helen Keller Institute in NYC if
nothing is found locally. (And mention Carl Augusto who used to be our
neighbor but now heads that institute.)
My first co-leader for our LLL group for mothers of multiples was completely
blind due to retinopathy of prematurity, and her husband also was completely
blind. However, she breastfed her (sighted) twins for a couple of years. She
also used to take her boys to visit friends all over the Eastern USA via the
Grayhound bus--she used child harnesses with leashes that she could clip to
her backpack.
Karen G
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Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 12:49:25 -0700
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From: "Phipps, Brenda" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: client's hubby thinks HM has environmental contaminants
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I work at a WIC office, and today had a client who told me she really wants
to breastfeed, but her husband is convinced that he read somewhere that
human milk is hazardous to an infant's health. He told her that unless she
can prove that HM does not become contaminated due to toxins entering her
body, he won't approve of her breastfeeding (glad he's not MY hubby!)
Anyway, if you know of any online research I can copy for her, she will be
very appreciative.
Thanks,
Brenda Phipps, BS, IBCLC
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Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 12:54:10 -0700
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: "Phipps, Brenda" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Breastfeeding of allergic infants
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Just read an article out of the Journal of Pediatrics, January 1999, stating
that a team of investigators from Finland stufied 100 infants who had
developed moderate to sever atopic excema while breastfeeding. Their
conclusion: breastfed infants who develop allergic symptoms should be
treated with allergy avoidance (i.e. elimination diet on the part of the
mom). In cases where infants experience growth retardation along with these
allergic symptoms, it was recommended that breastfeeding be "eliminated".
Any comment from the LACTNET gallery? I am sad that this appeared in this
particular journal!
Find it at:
http://www.medscape.com/Medscape/features/JournalScan/pediatrics/1999js-ped0
201.html
Brenda Phipps, BS, IBCLC
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Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 15:53:09 -0400
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From: "Cindy Curtis, RN, IBCLC" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: client's hubby thinks HM has environmental contaminants
Brenda,
In addition, I would consider supplying her with a list of all of the recent
formula recalls........... most parents don't think about that!
Cindy
Cindy Curtis,RN,IBCLC
http://www.iGive.com/html/ssi.cfm?cid=5731&mid=68196
Turn Everyday Online Shopping Into Philanthropy
mailto:[log in to unmask]
http://www.erols.com/cindyrn
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Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 13:32:42 -0400
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Diane Wiessinger <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Karen plus Karen equals wonderful conference
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If you see any conferences put together by our own Karen Foard and Karen
Nelson (of PA Midstate Lactation Coalition, or PA-MiLC), make a point of
going!
Their second conference last week was as good as their first. That is,
Practically Perfect in Every Way. An all-star cast, including Pat Gima,
Jack Newman, Lois Arnold, Tom Hale, and Marshall Klaus. Wonderful balance
of topics, wonderful conference!
Diane Wiessinger, MS, IBCLC, fortunate to live nearby in Ithaca, NY
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Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 15:36:46 -0400
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Diane Wiessinger <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: today's Dilbert
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Did you see today's Dilbert cartoon strip? The middle panel shows a
non-engineer talking to an engineer: "Teach me to be an engineer. I don't
care if it takes all day."
Might it have implications for those who want to take a 5-day course and
walk away prepared to practice as LCs?
Diane Wiessinger, MS, IBCLC Ithaca, NY
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Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 17:55:34 -0400
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From: Beth Seidel Ibclc <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: breastfeeding education for grade school
Hi all,
I facilitate a support group of breastfeeding moms and one of the moms from
the group called me today to tell me that she had been told by her niece's
3rd grade teacher, as the mom sat in the hallway of the niece's school
breastfeeding her 3 month old, that she had better cover up while feeding or
"better yet" go in the bathroom as this was not an appropriate place "to be
doing that." So the mom went home and called the superintendent who
basically blew her off after asking her if she had a remedy for the problem.
I encouraged her to turn it into a positive and tell them that she would
like to provide education to the 3rd grade class (and of course to the
teacher!) on feeding babies. She called back and the superintendent told
her that it was "problematic" as that was sex education and they would have
to get permission slips signed from the parents. The mom told her it did
not have anything to do with sex and he disagreed.
I would love ideas from any of you who have done education on the grade
school level about how we could overcome these barriers and what to include
in the curriculum!
Thanks!
Beth Seidel, BA, IBCLC
Mapleton, IL
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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 17:58:22 -0400
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Patrica Young <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: J. Riordan's address
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Thanks to all who supplied Jan's address and web site so quickly.
Sincerely, Pat in SNJ
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Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 18:24:31 EDT
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: interesting case
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power bars for breast fed babies! what a terrific concept. made with
breastmilk butter and yogurt, of course, and tasting best when washed down
with . . . mom's own.
i have a position about introducing solids which is pretty much the laissez
faire (i believe that is french for "lazy mother" method). i tell moms not to
start with cereal, but to use breastmilk or water or cow's milk (if that is
their family drink) with it if they must. you would not believe how many
exclusively breastfeeding mothers think you are "supposed" put formula in the
cereal. and there are even doctors in town who tell mothers this. "you have
to use formula, give it in a bottle every day, and use it in cereal." i asked
some poor woman why the doctor said this, and she replied that the doctor
said "just in case."
being in a wicked mood that day i innocently asked "in case what?" she didn't
know. i said, "in case you died?" now how likely is that, and to tell every
mother to use formula because of that revolting concept!
okay, now i am off the track. how to start solids? when they divebomb your
plate, let them eat food. yes, cathy is pretty close with "table scraps."
this particular case seemed to involve a baby who was not getting enough
breastmilk offered and there were various reasons why pumped milk or formula
was not being offered (believe me, i would have FED HIM THE ABM MYSELF IN A
BOTTLE if i could have, that just shows you have desperate this was).
so i said, give him ripe avocado, banana, meats, let's give the dairy a try
so you can give him butter, cheese, yogurt (hey, butter is just a form of
cheese, and very easy for babies to eat) and half and half. for those of you
not in the usa, half and half is a light cream. and, offer whole milk
(remember this is an 8 month old baby) in a cup. (according to the Wisdom of
dr. newman).
she had wanted to try offering solids as she did with her first child. first,
cereal with water. then after some lengthy time, a vegetable out of a jar.
then after a week, a fruit. then after another week, another vegetable. at
that rate, it would be months before he got any high calorie food. remember,
not too many foods have the caloric/nutrient density of breastmilk, so you
don't want to fill up the stomach of a poorly growing child with something
LESS nourishing. she also was unhappy that this child did not want her to
feed him. he wanted to feed himself (are we surprised?) but she didn't like
that because it was "messy and takes too long." (so what would it hurt if he
sat there for an hour if he were eating all that time? see what this was
like, and this is just a minor example).
but she managed to get on the program, so to speak, and is actually amazed
and delighted with what and how he eats, and how easy and "natural" it is. i
have lots of clients tell me this. it IS fun and humans are not little baby
birds, after all, who would just sit there with their mouths open and their
hands at their sides.
now, about the not offering formula in a cup, and offering "just cow's milk"
let me not sing that song again, but refer all who wonder to the archives,
where dr. newman has written about this before at some length.
"let them drink cow" (if the mother doesn't want to pump some). (after age
six months)
carol brussel IBCLC
eating high calorie/high density foods ALL the time in denver, CO (should be
eating rice cereal with water)
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Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 17:30:56 -0500
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Kathy Dettwyler <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Upcoming ABM Conference, Jean Kilbourne
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Someone sent me a copy of the ABM News and Views, Vol. 5, No. 3, 1999, in
which they announce a presentation titled "The Naked Truth: Images of
Breasts and Breastfeeding in the Media" at the upcoming ABM conference (this
Friday). It's being given by Jean Kilbourne, who brought us "Killing Us
Softly" and "Pack of Lies."
I have been giving *my* lecture/slide presentation on this same topic since
1993, and was very surprised to see someone else doing it. I have given
this lecture at colleges, universities, La Leche League conferences,
lactation consultant conferences, and grand rounds all over the USA, in
Canada and Australia, and will be giving it in a number of venues in 2000,
including England. I know many of you on LactNet have seen or heard my
presentation "Beauty and the Breast: The Cultural Context of Breastfeeding
in the United States." Chapter 7 in my book "Breastfeeding: Biocultural
Perspectives" is a written version of my presentation.
Obviously, there's no law that says somone else can't also take on this
topic, and I suppose I should be glad that someone of her stature is
spreading the word. Still, it was a surprise to see "my topic" listened
with someone else's name.
If the ABM wanted to hear this topic, why didn't they invite me? This is
apparently a new topic for her, as it is not listed on her web page as one
of the topics she lectures on.
Kathy Dettwyler, eating sour grapes in Texas
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Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 18:52:10 EDT
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: lisa mooney RN <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Nipplet
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Has anyone heard of or had experience with nipplets? Devices made by AV---
which are supposed to evert flat and/or inverted nipples, TIA Lisa Mooney
IBCLC
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Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 18:06:40 -0500
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: The Hamiltons <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: breastfeeding education for grade school
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Beth Seidel Ibclc wrote:
> She called back and the superintendent told
> her that it was "problematic" as that was sex education and they would have
> to get permission slips signed from the parents. The mom told her it did
> not have anything to do with sex and he disagreed.
>
> I would love ideas from any of you who have done education on the grade
> school level about how we could overcome these barriers and what to include
> in the curriculum!
Go to
http://www.health.state.ny.us/nysdoh/b_feed/index.htm
and be amazed. :-) I thought it was absolutely fabulous.
I believe at least one person who was instrumental in this effort is on
Lactnet-- maybe she will post and tell us how it's going in New York.
Joanne Hamilton
Foley, AL
--
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Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 18:42:34 -0500
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: gima <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Karen plus Karen equals wonderful conference
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Diane, what a nice post about the PA-MILC conference. I feel quite honored
to have been among such a pool of speakers. They are all such fine people
too, as we were saying when we were "passing notes in class."
We didn't have Lois in there because she is a woman, but she fits in with
the compliments.
I hope your trip home was pleasant. Mine was. And I came home to a full
voice mail box, which I handled Monday and Tuesday. Today was more
manageable.
Pat Gima
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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 10:24:21 -1000
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Denise Fisher <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: breastfeeding classes and informed consent
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Lori
I'm sorry but you've pushed a few of my buttons! My profession is no
'lesser' a profession than an MDs, therefore when I am speaking about
something about which I have professional (and research-based) knowledge I
do not tailor what I say because someone else doesn't like it.
The women come to you for breastfeeding information and that is what they
should get - as much as they want to know regardless of what anyone else
would prefer they don't know. Surely you would be negligent in your duty
to that woman NOT to provide her with the knowledge she wants, you possess
and she has approached you for.
In response to the Docs I'm afraid I'd be answering to the effect that I
teach what I believe to be correct and if they have information which is
contrary to what I am teaching please give me the research which I will
read diligently and change my practice accordingly.
Now I can understand the Obs concern about her refusing an epidural -
basically he's only doing what he believes to be best for the woman and her
babies. It would be far more appropriate for him to say yes there are 'side
effects' of epidurals, but the reason I want to use one is .... which I
feel outweighs the 'side effects'. Then he would have a fully informed
mother who could make up her own mind.
The other thing of course is that many of the women in your classes will
have epidurals (or whatever) anyway and therefore the class should be
advising of their effects, but also how to deal with these effects after
the event.
Lori, please don't think of yourself as inferior to any other profession.
So long as you stay up to date in your field of expertise, and stay within
the boundaries of your expertise, than don't let anyone or any other
professional influence your practice. Surely, even in the States, you
would have the full weight of the law on your side (to say nothing of
morals, ethics and 'doing the right thing').
OK - getting down off my soap box.
Denise
****************************************************
Denise Fisher, BN, RM, IBCLC
BreastEd Online Lactation Studies Course
http://www.breasted.com.au
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Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 20:47:01 -0400
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Glenn <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: client's hubby/ HM contamination
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"I work at a WIC office, and today had a client who told me she
really wantsto breastfeed, but her husband is convinced that he read
somewhere thathuman milk is hazardous to an infant's health. He told
her that unless shecan prove that HM does not become contaminated due
to toxins entering herbody, he won't approve of her breastfeeding
(glad he's not MY hubby!)"
What does he think of cows' milk? Does he think it is more or less
contaminated? Has he read about the steroids & antibiotics given to
cows? Has he researched the pesticides/ herbicides used on cattle
feed?
I'd turn it back around and instead of making HER defend herself, make
HIM get the materials he thinks he's read. If he can't find them...
oops, I guess he's wrong. I don't think SHE should have to defend
herself when even *mainsteam* magazines (and the backs of formula
cans, ferpetesake) say that "Breast is best."
Big surprise.
Teresa G in NC
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Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 20:55:52 -0400
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Glenn <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: LACTNET Digest - 27 Oct 1999 - Special issue (#1999-131)
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Beth wrote: "I would love ideas from any of you who have done
education on the gradeschool level about how we could overcome these
barriers and what to includein the curriculum!"
Beth,
I teach 6th graders currently (I have taught everything between 6 and
12th except 11th :) ). Here's what I would suggest you do:
(1) Research the curriculum and how it is implemented in the
classroom. There should be a standard course of study for health/
sexuality issues (yes, I agree it's not sexual, but we all know people
are ignorant and we must humor them). Find out what, if anything,
about breastfeeding is mentioned.
(2) Talk to the principal/ teachers in the school about who teaches
the health curriculum. Sometimes the classroom teachers does,
sometimes the P.E. teacher, sometimes outside people. My school uses
speakers from the Health Department. Find out from that person what
is said about breastfeeding.
(3) Write a proposal for your presentation. Include materials (you
could read a book about nursing mammals-- it might work into the
science curriculum-- and then talk about how humans are mammals and
nurse their young and this is why, etc.) and presentation style. You
want it to be clear that you will not be showing the children breasts
or talking about sex. (Again, I know it sounds stupid, but speaking
from experience, 90% of people in public schools are pretty stupid.)
(4) Present it to the principal and/ or superintendent.
If this does not work, you should find a school board member to be on
your side or start a letter writing campaign to your local newspaper.
Nothing moves education bureaucrats faster than the threat of looking
bad. ;)
In my class, although I teach language arts and social studies, I
mention breastfeeding whenever it seems appropriate. For example, my
students did debates today and one was on vegetarianism versus
meat-eating. One child mentioned that breastfeeding moms needed 65g of
protein per day (now I have NO idea about the accuracy of that
number)... at the end I mentioned that BF takes very few calories and
very little processing/ energy as compared to ABM and we talked about
the environmental implications of just raising cows for dairy products
like formula, let alone meat.
Teresa G in NC
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Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 22:12:26 -0400
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
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From: Lori Peters <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: teaching about epidurals
Thanks for the moral support.
After awhile you just feel like you are fighting a loosing battle.
I have long ago given up the idea that most moms should expereince a drug-
free labor because labor is a natural event that a women is made to do
...it's not what moms want (I am convinced this is a sign of our
times...pop a pill for everything...but thats a whole 'nother issue) and
it's not what the docs do (I would not accept any of that junk in my body
but it's not my expereince!!)
BUT i feel it is important for them to understand what may happen if they
end up taking IV sedation, an epidural or magnesium sulfate for that
matter. Some of this stuff is optional....some is given for medical
reasons....but either way they may have a "gorky" baby and this is what you
need to do to deal with this until baby wakes up.
I ALWAYS add that their doc is the best person to speak to about the
particulars of their situation as they know more about the mom than I
do....and, as someone who replied to me said, this gives the doc a chance
to say ... "yes i understand the side effects, but I want you to consider
this because......"
I WILL QUIT teaching if I am reduced to what they are asking of me which is
to say "epidurals are perfectly safe with no side affects at all....don't
worry...be happy!!!!" I am supposed to also say ...pitocin is never a
problem, continuous bedrest in labor is not a big deal and ya know formula
is just as good as breastmilk.....YA RIGHT!!!!
I did not really finish the story I posted online about this mom in
question....not only did she end up with a planned c/s .... but they did
try an epidural prior to the c/s for anesthesia and guess what......they
could not get it in....so this doc made a big old stink about nothing.
Lori Peters RN/IBCLC
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Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 23:02:07 -0400
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Denise Stuart <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Technetium
I have a mom that delivered a 32 week little girl this morning. Baby is on
CPAP for respiratory distress. Mom was short of breath after delivery and
went to nuclear med to rule out an embolii. She was given Technetium by
inhalation-is that how it is usually given? By reading Hale and the
archives, I know she needs to "pump and dump" for 24-48 hours (actually was
told 24 hours by the nuclear med department). I am thinking in this
situation, it is best to do 48 hours-agree? Does the radioactivity cease
in the pumped milk if it sits for a certain length of time? We are dumping
the milk for this first 24 hours as the doctor didn't want it around in case
it accidently spilled. I always want to be sure there isn't any way the
colostrum can be safely given even if it is further down the line after the
baby is discharged. I don't like throwing out any breastmilk unnecessarily
but I am all for safety of the baby. I don't get many cases like this so I
want to learn as much as possible from it.
Thanks in advance for your quick replies
Denise Stuar
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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 00:25:04 EDT
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
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<[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Client's hubby/HM Contamination
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Even the formula cans say "breastmilk is best"! I suspect there is more to
this husband's anti-breastfeeding attitude than meets the eye.
A great referenced article by Betty Crase on pesticides and breastfeeding:
http://www.lalecheleague.org/llleaderweb/LV/LVMayJun94p37.txt
Ruth Scuderi
Westfield, MA
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Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 21:28:52 PDT
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
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<[log in to unmask]>
From: laurie wheeler <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: subareolar implants - Trish's client
Comments: To: [log in to unmask]
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Trish
Welcome out of lurkdom. You described your client's scenario very well. You
are right, there are a few issues. 1) how will her milk production be? 2)how
will her engorgement be? 3)will she have primary lactation failure, i.e. her
breasts are not properly developed for full lactation and that is why she
got the implants?
In any case, I would proceed w/ regular (read optimal) lactation management
but follow her closely at least by phone, or preferrably by return appt and
watch for breast fullness, infant output and wt gain. Treat the engorgement
if it arises, the unemptied breast sections will involute. She may have
enough milk w/o supplements or she may not. If she needs supps then offer
alternate device, preferrably nursing supplementer at breast but this is
mom's choice. I have seen many times where a doctor is not very worried
about these types of things and neither is the mother, but lo and behold the
baby is in real trouble. So bottom line is very close followup and intervene
if needed.
FWIW, I believe in the open-pause-close suck and audible swallow, but I
swear once I saw a baby's first feeding in delivery room and I could swear
he was really getting milk. His jaw was opening so wide and strong and slow.
Later I find out this mom had br. reduction surgery and over the course of
days/weeks working with her she only got tiny amts of milk. Maybe the baby
was really swallowing that frist feeding?
Laurie Wheeler, RN, MN, IBCLC
Violet Louisiana, s.e. USA
______________________________________________________
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Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 21:44:00 -0700
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Anne P. Mitchell, Esq." <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Most recent information on mammogram while nursing?
Hi Folks,
Can anybody point me to the most recent information regarding having
a mammogram while nursing? I've searched the archives, and from that
I've gotten the sense that a) in terms of diagnosis a mammogram
while nursing can still be useful, and is better than no mammogram, and
b) that whether or not it is safe to nurse your child immediately following
a mammogram, or whether, instead, you should pump and dump, is open
to debate. All of this was gleaned from information which is about a year
old, though - is there anything more definitive out there now?
Thanks!
Anne
Jessica - 8/28/78
William - 4/11/98
I am: Mom, Attorney, Professor, Childbirth Educator (in training)
Founder & Director - Western N.Y. Mother's Milk Drive (1978-1979)
My own favourite baby-related tips:
http://www.dadsrights.org/annie/kidtips.html
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Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 21:49:42 PDT
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
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<[log in to unmask]>
From: laurie wheeler <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: welcome to our group
Comments: To: [log in to unmask]
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Barbara
Welcome to lactnet! I have been on 4+ years! I see you have a sense of
humor, an open mind, and are beginning menopause.....oh you will fit right
in!
Laurie Wheeler, RN, MN, IBCLC
Violet Louisiana, s.e. USA
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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 01:59:50 EDT
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
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<[log in to unmask]>
From: Theresa Chmiel <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Nipplet
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YUP! I saw them advertised in a woman's magazine about two years ago. I
called the 800 number and received a brochure. They cost about $100 and the
brochure was geared to those women who wanted to be "perky" not to enable
breastfeeding (not that these are needed for that). I recall one specific
reference to "your wedding night" and not to be used on pregnant women or
teens. The whole thing was quite bizarre. I was surprised to see such a
device produced from Avent.
Theresa Chmiel, CLC, ICCE
Las Vegas, NV
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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 02:14:26 EDT
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Theresa Chmiel <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: today's Dilbert
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In a message dated 10/27/99 3:46:34 PM Central Daylight Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:
<< Might it have implications for those who want to take a 5-day course and
walk away prepared to practice as LCs? >>
I'm not sure how to take this, Diane. I don't think you meant to offend any
one but I can't help but feel a little uneasy putting CLC behind my name. I
may not be "board certified" but I have several years of counseling and
clinical work under my belt. I know IBCLC's who ask me questions and one's
who go to consultations with every intervention known to women fully
intending to use them all.
The letters don't always give a clear picture of aptitude. In some cases it
may simply mean that a person tests well.
Remember, we all have to start some where and I am proud of the knowledge I
have gained over the years. Maybe someday I'll become board certified. Then
again, maybe not.
Theresa Chmiel, CLC, ICCE
Las Vegas, NV
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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 17:03:50 -1000
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Denise Fisher <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Breast Cancer Awareness
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'Lifted' this from another list I'm on - thought you might all appreciate it.
A handsome, middle aged man walked quietly into the cafe and sat
down. Before he ordered, he couldn't help but notice a group of younger
men at the table next to him. It was obvious they were making fun of
something about him, and it wasn't until he remembered he was wearing
a small pink ribbon on the lapel of his suit that he became aware of what
the joke was all about.
The man brushed off the reaction as ignorance, but the smirks began
to get to him. He looked one of the rude men square in the eye, placed his
hand beneath the ribbon and asked, quizzically, "This?". With that the
men all began to laugh out loud. The man he addressed said, as he fought
back laughter, "Hey, sorry man, but we were just commenting on how pretty
your little ribbon looks against your blue jacket!"
The middle aged man calmly motioned for the joker to come over to
his table, and invited him to sit down. As uncomfortable as he was, the guy
obliged, not really sure why.
In a soft voice, the middle aged man said, "I wear this ribbon to bring
awareness about breast cancer. I wear it in my mother's honor."
"Oh, sorry dude. She died of breast cancer?"
"No, she didn't. She's alive and well. But her breasts nourished me as
an infant, and were a soft resting place for my head when I was scared
or lonely as a little boy. I'm very grateful for my mother's breasts, and
her
health."
"Umm," the stranger replied, "yeah."
"And I wear this ribbon to honor my wife," the middle aged man went on.
"And she's okay, too?", the other guy asked"
"Oh, yes. She's fine. Her breasts have been a great source of loving
pleasure for both of us, and with them she nurtured and nourished our
beautiful daughter 23 years ago. I am grateful for my wife's breasts, and
for her health."
"Uh huh. And I guess you wear it to honor your daughter, also?"
"No. It's too late to honor my daughter by wearing it now. My daughter
died of breast cancer one month ago. She thought she was too young
to have breast cancer, so when she accidentally noticed a small lump,
she ignored it. She thought that since it wasn't painful, it must not be
anything to worry about."
Shaken and ashamed, the now sober stranger said, "Oh, man, I'm so sorry
mister".
"So, in my daughter's memory, too, I proudly wear this little ribbon, which
allows me the opportunity to enlighten others. Now, go home and talk to your
wife and your daughters, your mother and your friends. And here . . ."
The middle aged man reached in his pocket and handed the other man a little
pink ribbon.
The guy looked at it, slowly raised his head and asked, "Can ya help
me put it on?"
This is breast cancer awareness month. Do regular breast self-exams
monthly) and have annual mammograms if you are a woman over the age
of 45. And encourage those women you love to do the same.
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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 09:54:31 +0100
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
From: heather <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Nipplet
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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>YUP! I saw them advertised in a woman's magazine about two years ago. I
>called the 800 number and received a brochure. They cost about $100
What!! They are about =A312 here (about $20 I think) and available in the
big pharmacies. If you have very inverted nipples you have to buy two (one
for each nipple). They have not been independently evaluated AFAIK, and I
do not know of anyone who's used them, or any HPs whp recommend them. I
hear they sell well, though, and they advertise in the midwifery journals.
Heather Welford Neil
NCT bfc Newcastle upon Tyne UK
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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 22:23:54 +1300
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
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<[log in to unmask]>
From: Barneveld <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Couple of questions
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Until yesterday when I discovered a local pharmacy with the best range =
of medela products I've ever seen, I didn't know what a "haberman" =
looked like and had assumed when reading the name in posts that it wat =
the spoon style attachment on a bottle used for cleft palate babies =
soemtimes. Now i've seen it and having an inveterate gadget curiousity =
-when is it useful and what are its advantages or is this a hot debate =
area? In most of what I do we try and keep things as simple as possible =
but I like to keep informed of the options particularly when a local =
midwife (who by and large are great) rings me because she's got stuck. I =
was alos interested in those power solids as a friend who was worried =
about her ten month old weight gain was asking this on another board. =
It's pretty much what I suggested and in terms of calories what about =
chunks of well cooked sweet potato? Sonja LLLNZ
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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 06:41:41 EDT
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
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<[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: niplette
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Lisa:
there is one article by DD McGeorge in the Brithis Journal of plastic
Surgery. 1994 47, 46-49. the device is presented as an alternative to
sugery. He reports on approximately 40. 16 origional/6 pregnant athen and
additional 8 after the study. the majority wore the device for 3 months or
less and achieved their desired results.
the device is not inexpensive.
Patricia
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Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 06:58:36 -0400
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
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<[log in to unmask]>
From: Patrica Young <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Most recent information on mammogram while nursing?
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Went to a most excellent conference yesterday on Br Ca/pregnancy &
lactation. Jennifer Sobol, MD said lots of interesting stuff, but the
take home message was do not ignore breasts during pg & lactation. Keep
doing monthly self exams and insist on follow-up for any masses. Prove
benign OR suspicious, but ACT. Don't watch and wait. The reason outcomes
for Br Ca found during pg and lactation are poor is because they are found
so much later!
Br Ca is same rate for pg/lact women as for non pg/lact women. Stage for
stage outcomes are same. The problem is the later stage found in pg/lact
women because no one is paying attention.
Dr. Sobel and Susan Kellogg-Spadt, NP went over aspects of breast exam and
Dr. Sobol reviewed diagnostic tools. For masses in pg woman she goes 1.
US, 2. fine needle aspiration, 3. mammo for proven malignancy.
She discussed routine mammos for women who are pg and nursing over a long
period of time. Take baby with you, empty one breast, do study. Get baby
to nurse again, empty 2nd breast and do mammo on 2nd side. She says she
has lots of arguments with radiologists about this, but feels she is right
and they are wrong. Weaning is never an option just to be able to do a
study of a suspicious lump in BF woman!
So the main message is:
Don't ignore your breasts during pg and lactation.
Pg-do monthly exams, bring any lumps to drs attention and insist on
follow-up, not watch & wait.
Lactation, do monthly exams and get routine mammos if you are over 40.
Follow-up any mastitis that does not resolve COMPLETELY. Investigate any
masses that aren't obvivous plugged ducts.
Sincerely, Pat in SNJ
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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 07:18:25 -0400
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Leslie White <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: client's hubby thinks HM has environmental contaminants
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Has this client's hubby considered that the cows which produce the milk
for formula are also exposed to environmental contaminants? Does he
realize that formula's are occasionally contaminated during processing
with bacteria and foreign materials? Once ground glass was found in
powdered formula. Perhaps if he considers the less than perfect
condition under which formula is produced combined with some good
current info on how little toxins actually make it through breastmilk,
he will come to see the light. Glad he's not mine, either!!!
Leslie White
Deep River Ontario
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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 12:19:54 +0100
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
From: heather <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: niplette
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>Lisa:
>
> there is one article by DD McGeorge in the Brithis Journal of plastic
>Surgery. 1994 47, 46-49. the device is presented as an alternative to
>sugery. He reports on approximately 40. 16 origional/6 pregnant athen and
>additional 8 after the study. the majority wore the device for 3 months or
>less and achieved their desired results.
>
> the device is not inexpensive.
>
> Patricia
He wasn't independent, though Patricia, was he??? I have a feeling he was
the developer of the device. We need a good study that compares use with
non use and measures bf outcomes and duration.
Heather Welford Neil
NCT bfc Newcastle upon Tyne UK
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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 09:22:48 EDT
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
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<[log in to unmask]>
From: Kris Everette <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Looking out for long lost pumps
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I know when I worked at a hospital in Florida, we had pumps that did not make
it back to the rental station. Especially pumps "loaned" out for free to
those who couldn't afford them and needed them for a premie. People put them
in closets when they are through with them and "forget" them. I'm sure VERY
few individuals purchase these rental pumps. It's a good idea for nurses who
make home visits to ask a mom where she got a pump if they see one in the
home. I recently came across a pump that was considered gone forever-it was
found in a cabinet in a health dept 2 counties away from where it was loaned
from. Medela, and I'm sure other companies who rent pumps, can tell by the
serial number, where the pump belongs ( a hospital, WIC, etc.).
Kris Everette
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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 15:24:29 +0200
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Renate Rietveld IBCLC <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: niplette
In-Reply-To: <l03130317b43de14fe750@[195.147.161.19]>
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Yep! And he's the one on the video from Avent about using the
Niplette. By the way, here in the Netherlands they sell for approx. $50.00
Maybe the person who said it's cheaper talks about the 'reversed' syringe
(but than again I don't think so, for wearing two of 'those' under your
clothes would be a really strange sight -to put it politely-)
regards,
Renate Rietveld, IBCLC
>> there is one article by DD McGeorge in the Brithis Journal of plastic
>>Surgery. 1994 47, 46-49.
>He wasn't independent, though Patricia, was he??? I have a feeling he was
>the developer of the device.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Renate Rietveld, IBCLC
E-mail : [log in to unmask]
Homepage: http://www.casema.net/~rietveld/index.htm
--------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 10:06:17 EDT
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
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<[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Initials
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Theresa says,
<< I can't help but feel a little uneasy putting CLC behind my name. I
may not be "board certified" but I have several years of counseling and
clinical work under my belt. I know IBCLC's who ask me questions and one's
who go to consultations with every intervention known to women fully
intending to use them all. >>
But Theresa, what does CLC mean? I don't mean to pick on you -- and I'm not
going to, but this is a major problem for the public and for others. Exactly
what does CLC mean? Or CLE? or CLS? Or a myriad of other intials that are
out there. How does anyone, especially the public, know what this person has
done to "earn" the CLC? Or CLE? Or C...whatever.
In many cases it means you went to a 18-45 hour (more or less) program --
maybe there was an exam at the end; maybe not. Maybe there was homework;
maybe not. Maybe there was followup clinical; maybe not. Whatever else we
know about the person with an IBCLC, we know that she/he has at minimum, 30
hours of didactic education, at minimum, 2500 breastfeeding consultancy hours
(and lets not get into "well I know someone who never touched a breast &
passed the IBLCE -- BTDT), and passed a criterion-referenced, rigorous, 6
hour exam that was put together by a team of experts from around the world,
and moderated by a psychometrician. There may be problems with the IBLCE
exam - there are problems with nursing boards, there are problems with
medical & dental boards, problems with cosmetology boards. We will not have
a perfect exam or setup for exam -- not in our lifetime. But at least the
public can be aware that there are certain criteria that the person with the
IBCLC has passed...
Furthermore, if an IBCLC is guilty of malpractice there are routes to go to
have that person investigated. I don't know of anyplace to go if a person
that has a CLE or CLS or CLC or whatever gives lactation advice that harms a
baby or a mother unless it is to the courts. And are there safeguards around
those initials that means the person HAS to obtain continuing education to
maintain certification -- or is it once certified always certified?
So for those that have the consultancy hours and the didactic hours, why not
take the board exam?
Putting on my flame-retardant suit and waiting for the fireballs....
Jan Barger, RN, MA, IBCLC -- proud to have once sat on the IBLCE board which
gave me an entirely different perspective on this process.
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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 09:20:54 -0500
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Leslie Ward <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Client's Hubby thinks HM contaminated
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>He told her that unless she
can prove that HM does not become contaminated due to toxins entering =
her
body, he won't approve of her breastfeeding (glad he's not MY hubby!)<
This phrase scared me, sounds like you may be dealing with an =
controling/abusive situation here and here's my .02 worth - nothing you =
will say will 'prove' to this man that anything different from what he =
is spouting will make a difference.
You are working with her, you need to seriously consider the whole =
situation, did she sound incredulous (like, can you believe what my =
husband said?) or apologetic (like, I want to breastfed, but my husband =
said this) or defensive (like, I know breastfeeding is best, but - my =
husband said . . .). So you can best decide which way to go.=20
My reasoning is that if this mom is in a controling/abusive situation, =
presenting research may not work, only push this issue into a bigger =
'conflict.' If she is defensive, she may not want to breastfeed and is =
using her hubby (maybe perhaps just a comment he made) as an excuse.=20
If you can find out how the mom actually feels concerning her desires, =
information and plans concerning breastfeeding, you may be able to find =
the right direction to go, which may make it easier, more likely for =
breastfeeding to be initiated.=20
For controling/abusive husbands, a male reference/contact, may work the =
best. Check the archives, Dr. Jack's handouts and WABA, for information. =
He just may see you as a female, putting 'wrong' ideas in his =
'misguided' wife's head.
Oops, didn't mean to go on so long, but I have to admit, when I hear =
some key phrases, they hit a real 'hot' button in me. . .
Leslie Ward
Fort Hood, TX
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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 10:25:39 -0400
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Cathy Bargar <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Breastfeeding of allergic infants
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"In cases where infants experience growth retardation along with these
allergic symptoms, it was recommended that breastfeeding be "eliminated".
Any comment from the LACTNET gallery?"
All I have to say is if they think they've got problems with human milk,
just WAIT till they try the alternatives!
Cathy Bargar RN IBCLC Ithaca NY
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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 11:27:13 +0200
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Rachel e-mail <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: ABM conference
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No sooner do I get used to these initials meaning "artificial baby =
milk"-- which I previously thought was that white stuff in those magic, =
closed doll bottles that empty when upended and magically fill again =
when righted, meant for artificial babies, i.e. dolls.
Now they are holding conferences, and of all things, about breasts!
Please someone tell me what the ABM is!
Rachel
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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 11:35:36 +0200
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Rachel e-mail <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: nipplettes
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I have no experience from women who have used them, but:
I have seen them, and the advertising for them, and compared prices with =
the price of a 10 or 20 ml plastic syringe which anyone can convert to =
the same type of device, using the description in Jan Riordan's =
"Practical Guide to Breastfeeding". They cost in Norway more than 20 =
times as much as syringes. Only drawback with the homemade variety is =
that unlike Nipplettes, they can not be discreetly worn under clothing. =
But with the right kind of gauzy, flowing top they could be quite =
striking in an indiscreet kind of way, and probably safer than piercing!
from Norway with intact tongue in non-pierced cheek
Rachel
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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 11:13:47 -0400
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Cathy Bargar <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: carol b's feeding method
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Yes, for babies who haven't shown "allergic tendencies" (i.e. to dairy in
mom's diet or whatever)!!
I'll bet most of us on this list who have more than 1 child past this stage
of development can remember what a liberation it was to discover, after
following the precsribed method of "introducing solids" with baby #1 and
being far too busy and significantly more relaxed & confident with
subsequent kids, what a fun, easy, and healthful way to this is! I remember
w/my first the incredible care and paranoia with which I moved through the
recommended rigamarole (and we didn't have nearly as many "rules" back then,
so it was easier than what parents are told now); you would have thought we
were doing brain surgery, following only an instruction manual. Never so
much as a taste of anything refined, or sweetened w/the dreaded sugar, or
unwholesome in any way, fending off the grandmas who were determined to let
him have "just a bite" of ice cream at his 1st birthday, the whole nine
yards.
By the time my twins came along, I didn't have time for or interest in this
kind of fiddling around (nor, in fact, did I have a clue that dairy in my
diet could have been causing the eczema in the one, but it all worked out
fine anyway). When they looked interested and started snatching stuff off my
plate, that was that. What fun! Some of my fondest memories of that time are
of the girls checking out new foods - it's hard to believe the mess a
10-month old can make with one single strawberry, and the pure joy and
delight they can show with that same berry. Well worth the mess, and even
worth the non-refunded security deposit on the apartment because the carpet
around their eating area (hideous & mangy to begin with!) had to be replaced
after we moved on.
Another favorable consequence of this "lazy mother" approach was that I
can't say I ever actually "weaned" these babies. We skipped the bottle stage
entirely and they started drinking from a cup (I didn't even bother with the
sippy-cup thing either, as a sign of how negligent I had become - regular
old cups worked just fine) for anything other than breastmilk pretty early,
and it all just worked out as they gradually transitioned from nurslings to
little kids sitting at the table.
I was lucky - these were healthy, thriving kids, not ones whose growth
anyone with a pair of eyes could be concerned about. But the experience
convinced me that, **in the absence of signs that indicate a problem**, this
is the way to go.
Cathy Bargar RN IBCLC Ithaca NY (who followed pretty much the same method -
that would be the "benign neglect" method - with so-called toilet training.
This "method" consisted pretty much of them of course always swarming around
when I was going, me talking about what the toilet is for ('cause I babbled
to them all day long about everything anyway!), and letting them know that
when they were "ready" (a mysterious and undefined term, now that I think
about it) they would use it too. Which resulted in almost 3 yrs. of diapers,
which was totally fine with me because it's way easier to just have young
toddlers in dipes than to try to cope with the unreliably-"training" ones,
and then *exactly* at the time they started in day care announcing that they
didn't use diapers anymore, they use the toilet now, and that was that.)
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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 11:47:56 EDT
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Sharon Healy <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: old books
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Thank you to everyone to responded to my inquiry about what they do with old
books. I have decided to go on my first instinct and keep them . This is
what I was doing but in trying to get organized I thought maybe I should get
rid of them. I am a collector at heart. I will never be organized anyway.
I will keep all the requests for them an dput them in each book. Then if I
ever what them to find a new home , I know who would appreciate them. Thanks
for all the many emails. It is great to have so many people with so much in
common. Sharon
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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 12:07:49 EDT
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Initials
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In a message dated 10/28/99 7:20:14 AM US Mountain Standard Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:
<< But Theresa, what does CLC mean? I don't mean to pick on you -- and I'm
not
going to, but this is a major problem for the public and for others. Exactly
what does CLC mean? Or CLE? or CLS? Or a myriad of other intials that are
out there. How does anyone, especially the public, know what this person has
done to "earn" the CLC? Or CLE? Or C...whatever.
>>
Jan,
How many people in the general public know what IBCLC means if you don't
explain it to the? I am not trying to be flip here, I spend a lot of my time
educating clients as to the difference between my 'credentials' as a clc and
'student lactation consultant' and those my employer who is an IBCLC.
Like the previous poster (Theresa I believe) I have had IBCLC's ask me
questions, have more information on some subjects than they do, and am well
aware of my limitations. I do not do consults, I do not help with latch on
questions (except to describe proper positioning and tell them that bf does
not hurt if done correctly) and I don't try to pass myself off as a lactation
consultant in any way. There are people in other support areas (WIC and LLL
for example-not to disparage either of those groups) who have less experience
than I and no credentials-dispensing BF help of all kinds.
As I have asked before, how else am I supposed to get started? I cannot work
in the capacity I do without the CLC credential, and am looked down upon by
the profession I want to join by using the CLC credential. Tell me what you
want me to do. You pushed some buttons here.
Cheryl Tompkins CLC
Phoenix AZ USA
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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 12:33:39 -0400
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Marie Biancuzzo <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Initials
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I can't help getting into this discussion. There are, and have been for
many years, multiple certifications for any group--childbirth educators,
nurses, physicians, etc., so I think we are just starting to see this
happen with the lactation consultants. I don't think it's good or bad; it's
just the nature of how things evolve.
Relatively few people know the meaning of any of the alphabet soup after my
name, so I've gradually used less and less. Few of *you* would know what I
have done to "earn" the whatevers behind my name.
I've got initials I've never used. I don't think the public, or other
professionals for that matter, know what is involved in sitting for any of
these exams, or getting any of these credentials. We've all seen good MDs
and bad MDs and good CPAs and bad CPAs and good CFPs and everything else.
So passing the exam doesn't attest to the person's goodness or badness. If
the issue is educating others about the level of expertise of that
person--which I think was Jan's main point--then I personally don't rely on
the person's credentials. The *best* source of information, in my opinion,
is other people's impressions about this person's ability to provide
high-quality care, advice, plumbing, landscaping, or whatever. I'm fairly
outcome oriented, I guess.
My main message is: The problem "understanding" the certified expert is not
secular to the lactation community, and the problem of multiple certifying
bodies is not secular to the lactation community. You'll never be able to
educate the consumer about all of the requirements and credentials of
provider. But you'll never be able to fool them about that person's
competence, either.
>Theresa says,
>
><< I can't help but feel a little uneasy putting CLC behind my name. I
> may not be "board certified" but I have several years of counseling and
> clinical work under my belt. I know IBCLC's who ask me questions and one's
> who go to consultations with every intervention known to women fully
> intending to use them all. >>
>
>But Theresa, what does CLC mean? I don't mean to pick on you -- and I'm not
>going to, but this is a major problem for the public and for others. Exactly
>what does CLC mean? Or CLE? or CLS? Or a myriad of other intials that are
>out there. How does anyone, especially the public, know what this person has
>done to "earn" the CLC? Or CLE? Or C...whatever.
>
>In many cases it means you went to a 18-45 hour (more or less) program --
>maybe there was an exam at the end; maybe not. Maybe there was homework;
>maybe not. Maybe there was followup clinical; maybe not. Whatever else we
>know about the person with an IBCLC, we know that she/he has at minimum, 30
>hours of didactic education, at minimum, 2500 breastfeeding consultancy hours
>(and lets not get into "well I know someone who never touched a breast &
>passed the IBLCE -- BTDT), and passed a criterion-referenced, rigorous, 6
>hour exam that was put together by a team of experts from around the world,
>and moderated by a psychometrician. There may be problems with the IBLCE
>exam - there are problems with nursing boards, there are problems with
>medical & dental boards, problems with cosmetology boards. We will not have
>a perfect exam or setup for exam -- not in our lifetime. But at least the
>public can be aware that there are certain criteria that the person with the
>IBCLC has passed...
>
>Furthermore, if an IBCLC is guilty of malpractice there are routes to go to
>have that person investigated. I don't know of anyplace to go if a person
>that has a CLE or CLS or CLC or whatever gives lactation advice that harms a
>baby or a mother unless it is to the courts. And are there safeguards around
>those initials that means the person HAS to obtain continuing education to
>maintain certification -- or is it once certified always certified?
>
>So for those that have the consultancy hours and the didactic hours, why not
>take the board exam?
>
>Putting on my flame-retardant suit and waiting for the fireballs....
>Jan Barger, RN, MA, IBCLC -- proud to have once sat on the IBLCE board which
>gave me an entirely different perspective on this process.
>
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--
Marie Biancuzzo
Perinatal Clinical Nurse Specialist
[log in to unmask]
Resources to simplify breastfeeding management are available at
http://www.wmc-worldwide.com
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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 12:48:08 -0400
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Kathleen Bruce <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Credentials
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I think that Jan's point is that there by using the IBCLC as a
credentialling criterium, we can safely know what that person has or has not
accomplished, and we know the person has passed the examination that has
been carefully constructed.
It is meant, I believe, as a baseline, ....the problem with many separate
pathways is that it muddies the waters about the profession as a whole.
I see a parallel to the various ways to accomplish the RN ....3 year, 2
year, 4 year, etc.
I see the IBCLC as a baseline professional credential.
Kathleen
Kathleen B. Bruce, BSN, IBCLC co-owner Lactnet,TLC, Indep. Consultant
Williston, Vermont
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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 12:17:55 -0500
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Mary Kay Smith <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: Sinai Health System
Subject: ABM means..
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Academy of Breastfeeding Medicine. you can subscribe to the newsletter
even if you are NOT an MD.
Mary Kay Smith, IBCLC
Romeoville, IL near Chicago
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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 13:50:20 EDT
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From: Christine Betzold <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: HM contamination
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<< client's hubby thinks HM has environmental contaminants >>
Could this be a smoke screen for an underlying issue? It is my guess that
he has some underlying discomfort/concerns about breasts/breastfeeding and
even if you prove that HM is superior to him he will still sabotage the BF
in another way. I would suggest addressing how he REALLY feels about BF
and avoid focusing on the contamination issue. Christine Betzold NP CLE
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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 18:18:40 +0100
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: heather <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: bf=pornogrpahy
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Oh dear....I have just had a call from a local medical school, asking me to
give a talk to their first year med students. I am happy to accept.
While I was accepting, the clerk asked me to recommend a video they could
use with the students as the one they are currently using is not liked by
the course administrator.
Which video is is, I asked.
'The Norwegian one, Breast is Best' she said. (Most of you will know it - I
like it, it has many good aspects. but of course it isn;t perfect....)
I asked why the course administrator didn't like it.
'Oh, hahaha,' said the clerk nervously. 'She says it's a bit pornographic!'
Well, I know of dozens of videos, but I decided I was not going to
recommend another one. I mean...well, sheesh.
Heather Welford Neil
NCT bfc Newcastle upon Tyne UK
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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 14:36:41 EDT
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Grant funding for LC
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Does anyone have info that would be useful in applying for a grant for an LC
position at a large county hospital? I have the background info, like
statistics, studies and such but would appreciate info from anyone who has
been down this road and done it successfully. I believe there is a lot of
support for me to do this and even a few docs at the hospital already
applying for a grant but I feel I have more info that could make a difference
than what they have and I would like to get the grant so that I could set up
the program. I worked under a grant at this hospital on a different program
but was able to do lactation while there. We lost some grant money so my
position was eliminated and, with it went the lactation support. The
hospital is so dependant on grant money, they wouldn't consider a lactation
program without it. Has anyone done this successfull who would be willing to
share their "how-to's" and suggestions, maybe even an idea of what to write?
TIA
Marsha Puckett Glass RN, IBCLC
Indianapolis, IN
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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 14:47:33 EDT
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Initials
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<< There are people in other support areas (WIC and LLL
for example-not to disparage either of those groups) who have less experience
than I and no credentials-dispensing BF help of all kinds.
>>
My understanding is that La Leche League Leaders are "accredited". The term
"Leader" is to mean that a woman underwent a specific accreditation precess
in order to become a Leader. Not every woman is approved to become a La
Leche League Leader. I do know that there are Leaders who have been active
in the organization for over 30 years, having counseled literally thousands
of women.
A La Leche League Leader in her correct capacity does not dispense "BF help
of all kinds"; she shares LLLI approved sources of information. There are
very specific guidelines that are followed in order to assure that mothers
are receiving up-to-date and correct information. This is the best "kind" of
information to receive.
It should also be noted that many, many IBCLCs are LLL Leaders. I believe
that many of them would agree that the sources of information that they rely
on in either capacity are very much the same, ie, BAB, Ruth Lawrence,
Breastfeeding and Human Lactation, etc.
For more information, please refer to the Leader Accreditation Department
information found at the LLLI website: http://www.lalecheleague.org.
Ruth Scuderi
Westfield, MA
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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 15:02:35 EDT
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: mammo while lactating
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Anne,
From a presentation I heard yesterday, given by a breastfeeding-friendly
breast surgeon (Same one Pat Young went to), I understood this:
A lactating mother certainly can have a mammogram. She should take the baby
to the appointment and, right before the film is done, nurse to empty the
breast as far as possible, then nurse the other side right before that film
is done. This would involve some advance planning---bringing someone along
to take the baby out of the x-ray room during the procedure itself, for
instance, and assuring a cooperative attitude on the part of the x-ray tech
about scheduling a time suited to the baby's usual nursing pattern. They
might have to sandwich someone else's appointment in between doing the two
breasts.
Chris
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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 15:12:11 EDT
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Initials -- round 2
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Cheryl asks,
<< As I have asked before, how else am I supposed to get started? I cannot
work
in the capacity I do without the CLC credential, and am looked down upon by
the profession I want to join by using the CLC credential. Tell me what you
want me to do. You pushed some buttons here. >>
This is frustrating for all concerned, certainly for those of us that believe
that the IBCLC is the basic credential. Certainly if your employer requires
initials after your name that prove that you went through an educational
program of some sort in order for you to work -- that may indicate a lack of
understanding on the part of your employer. I guess my question would be, if
you took a 5 or 6 day lactation management program that does NOT confer a
credential following their program (and several come to mind), you would not
be employable even though you have essentially the same educational base?
No one (I would hope) is "looking down" at someone who has a CLC or CLE or
CLS or CBE or....a variety of other initials. As I said in my previous post
-- I don't know what a CLC is, or where a person got the CLC. It could be
from a one day wonder course -- it could be from a 5 day program -- it could
be from an extensive year long program -- I simply don't know, and neither
does anyone else without questioning you. Yes, there are people that don't
understand what an IBCLC is without explaining it, but the IBCLC credential
is considered among people who DO know what it is as the "gold standard." As
we know, anyone can call themselves a lactation consultant. For that matter,
anyone could call themselves a certified lactation consultant -- who is
around to check up on them? Or question them? If I'm not sure of someone
who claims to have the IBCLC credential, I just have to ask IBLCE if that
person is truly an IBCLC, or has recertified or whatever.
But this doesn't answer your question -- which just demonstrates the
confusion that exists with the myriad initials out there. What I would like
for everyone to do -- since you asked, Cheryl, is to sit for the board exam
as soon as they are qualified to do so!
I would love for educational programs to stop awarding certifications of
program completion.
I would love it if everyone would acknowledge ILCA's 1993 statement that the
IBLCE is the only recognized lactation credential.
And, if I were queen of the universe (instead of just queen of vegemite &
cabbage), I would have a universal "title" that everyone who has completed a
lactation management course could use until they could sit for the board exam
-- something like "prepared breastfeeding counselor" or "lactation consultant
intern" (implying that you are working on obtaining your consultancy hours,
but you aren't quite 'there' yet), or Breastfeeding Educator, or
Breastfeeding Specialist -- or something that indicates that there is one
more step still to be taken.
Yup -- IF I were queen of the universe...all babies would be breastfed and no
one would have any problems, and we could all go open bookstores.
Jan Barger, RN, MA, IBCLC -- who finds that this discussion is also one of
HER hot buttons!
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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 15:14:15 EDT
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
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From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Client's hubby think HM is contaminated
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I think we have to be honest and admit that human milk does have more toxins
than cows' milk. That's because most humans are higher on the food chain
than cows. Humans eat things like fish and meat, where environmental toxins
are stored in fat. And then we store the toxins in our fat until our bodies
take advantage of lactation to dump some of their load.
However, I heard of a study that looked at the IQs of babies nursed by women
with significant toxic exposure. Their outcomes were similar to formula-fed
babies. In other words, the good things in human milk compensated for the
toxic exposure. The babies would not have been any better off neurologically
if formula-fed, and since they were breastfed, they didn't miss out on all
those other good things, like immune protection, close bond with mother, jaw
exercise...etc.
Chris Mulford
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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 15:24:49 EDT
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
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From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: ABM
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ABM = Academy of Breastfeeding Medicine as well as artificial baby milk. Boy
are we a confusing group.
Dori
Teaneck, NJ
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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 21:35:24 +0200
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
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From: Regine Gresens <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: HIV-infektion and breastfeeding
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(I have already send this to the list before but I think it didn't go
through. Therefore I'll try again.)
Dear lactnetters,
first of all I want to thank all those who answered my former questions
regarding HIV-infektion and breastfeeding. Based on the information I gave
to this woman, who is now 37weeks pregnant and has a noticable
HIV-antibodies for 10 years now and a very low virus load and an excellent
immun status, she is now planing to pump her milk and holder-pasteurize it
(perhaps for a year). She is taking retrovir right now to protect the baby
and will have a CS in 1,5 weeks. I also just talked to a pediatrician who is
willing prescribe a doublepump and to look at the baby when they are home.
Only the clinicians still need to be convinced that this is safe and
practical, it seems they have never heard before of this possibility.
Also I would like to give this mother some more instructions how to best
handle the pumping and especially the pasteurization.
Therefore I would very much appreciate any information on the safety of
pasteurization, as it is recommended for milk banking. I tried to get the
guidelines for milk banks, but could not get a hold of, yet.
Also if anyone knows of a technique or a tool to safely pasteurize at home,
I would be very thankful.
Or could anyone give me the name or eMail-address of a mother who has done
this too?
Last but not least someone mentioned to me that Marion Thompson of LLLI has
got some informal information for HIV-infected women. Unfortunately I could
not find out her eMail-address, I tried through LLL but never got an answer.
Please help fast since time runs, preferably by private eMail
TIA,
Regine Gresens, IBCLC
midwife and lactation consultant in private practice,
Hamburg, Germany
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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 15:57:53 -0400
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
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From: Cathy Bargar <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Initials
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Well, since we're going around on this one again, here's what I think:
Jan's right, in everything she said about the credentialing process.
Theresa's right - there are people possessing every bit as much skill and
knowledge and experience out there, with different initials after their
names. Cheryl's right - as a person entering the profession, without the BIG
set of letters, it's not very helpful or positive to be looked down on by
those whose ranks you aspire to join. I'm sure there are others out there
who are not sure that those particular initials are the ones they *want*
after their names. And they're right too.
I think we must find ways to look at these issues not as a turf war, and not
as a "mine's bigger than yours, so ha-ha-ha" contest, and not in terms of
"my initials are the only *real* ones, so your ABC or XYZ doesn't really
count". We do need to work towards standardization of what these initials
can be expected to mean, in the ways Jan spoke about so well. But we will
*never*, ever get there by scorning someone else's initials, or background,
or preparation! That route of thinking only leads to divisiveness among
ourselves, and doesn't serve the common cause that we share at all well.
That's like going backwards to the kind of hazing mentality that I bet we
all agree is stupid. (I think of it as a traditionally masculine
hierarchical model, but I know I'll get blasted for saying that!)
I don't want that for our profession. Nor do I want anybody who feels
qualified to do so just hanging out their shingle as a BFing expert. I agree
that we need to have definitions and standards for what various initials
mean in terms of experience, skill, & didactic training. Doesn't mean all
the initials have to be the same; I expect slightly different things from an
IBCLC than from a LLLL, for example, or an OD vs. MD, and I don't mean that
one is "better" or more skillful than the other. And I mostly don't care at
all that the general public doesn't know or care what IBCLC means. But I do
care that those who need to know the differences should be able to tell from
the letters after my name what kind of background/training/experience I
have. And I hate to have us squabbling amongst ourselves; that's how "they"
have kept "us" down, whoever "they" and "us" might be in any given
situation. Not to be too cliched about it, but "united, we stand; divided,
we fall".
Cathy Bargar RN IBCLC, Ithaca NY - who worked for many years as "the
breastfeeding specialist" in my hospital OB dep't with no more "credentials"
than that I cared about BFing & thought it was important & was willing to go
a little further than most to learn all I could about how to help moms &
babies.
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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 15:52:27 EDT
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
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From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: CLC credentials
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Dear Lactnetters:
I am normally a "lurker" but I would like to jump into the discussion on
credentials. I would love to hear any advice for getting the necessary
experience to sit for the IBCLC. I am an RN who would love to work part-time
and gain the necessary hours to sit for the exam. However, in my area, I
cannot find a position. Everyone wants the experience and certification
first. I do lots of volunteer work, but my husband says volunteer work is
great, getting a paid job would be even greater! I thought about taking a 5
day course to get started. Any suggestions?
Barb Cavanaugh
RN, BSN, volunteer
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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 16:07:43 -0400
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
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From: wendey <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: credentials
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Marie Biancuzzo wrote:
>You'll never be able to
>educate the consumer about all of the requirements and credentials of
>provider. But you'll never be able to fool them about that person's
>competence, either.
You really think so? I know I want to end up as IBCLC because of two
things... which are intertwined... one is I never ever refer people who
need help (as opposed to support) to anyone who's not an IBCLC because of
too many bad experiences I've had with incompetent LCs that women believed
because our cultural knowledge of breastfeeding is so nil. Now I have had
a few bad experiences with IBCLCs too unfortunately, but honestly not near
the same level as with the ones I've had with non-IBCLCs. Which brings me
to reason two, which is if *I* don't trust the other standards why would I
ask women to trust me when I didn't have those credentials myself?
On the other hand... I'm not into banning or regulating non-IBCLCs. To me
that strikes way too close to the Nurse-Midwife/Non-Nurse-Midwife debate.
I just think there should be more public knowledge so people can know what
they're getting into and who they're dealing with.
-Wendey (studying in Montreal, peer support bf counselor)
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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 16:15:21 -0400
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Lisa Schulz-Sunkler <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Update from early September
Comments: To: NMI Onelist <[log in to unmask]>
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I posted some time back about a mother whose newborn (at the time) had an
unusual birthmark that the first doctor wanted to operate on immediately.
After getting no less than 4! opinions, the mother and father found out that
they could reasonably wait until the baby was a year old. This would allow
the baby to be mature enough to have no danger from the anesthesia, and
allow the skin to become more "stretchy" (?). In any case the responses and
support allowed the mom and dad to make a well-informed decision and they
felt more empowered.
To relate this to breastfeeding, the baby has since gone on to have reflux,
which leads to extended periods of crying in the evenings and not wanting to
be laid down *at all*. Having confidence in their earlier decision has
given the parents the skills to deal with this next hurdle in raising their
daughter. I believe this would have been much harder for all if they had not
successfully dealt with the issue of the nevi on the baby's leg.
Thank you for the input I got from Lactnet and Nursing Mothers to help this
family.
Lisa Schulz-Sunkler
Earleville, MD
counseling coordinator, Nursing Mothers, Inc.
mailto:[log in to unmask]
Nursing Mothers: http://www.nursingmoms.org
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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 15:43:22 -0500
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Kathy Dettwyler <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: New study on breastfeeding and work
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
http://www.acs.ohio-state.edu/units/research/archive/brstfeed.htm
Kathy
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
Katherine A. Dettwyler, Ph.D. email:
[log in to unmask]
Anthropology Department phone: (409) 845-5256
Texas A&M University fax: (409) 845-4070
College Station, TX 77843-4352
http://www.prairienet.org/laleche/dettwyler.html
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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 16:41:28 EDT
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
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From: Theresa Chmiel <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Nipplet
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In a message dated 10/28/99 4:03:31 AM Central Daylight Time,=20
[log in to unmask] writes:
<< They cost about $100
=20
What!! They are about =A312 here (about $20 I think) and available in the
big pharmacies. >>
That was a couple of years ago at least, maybe three (I can't remember who I=
=20
was pregnant with then). Our Breastfeeding Task Force was astonished at the=
=20
price and the advert. I have not known any one who has used them either. A=
s=20
you can guess, they were pretty cost prohibitive when they first came out an=
d=20
no one on the task force was willing to shell out $100 to evaluate them. I=20
have never seen them in any retail store nor have I had any inquiries from=20
moms. Any one in the US seen them at Target?
Theresa Chmiel, CLC, ICCE
Las Vegas, NV, US
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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 15:41:29 -0500
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Mary Alice Phillips <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: initials round two
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Can someone explain the intended scope of practice for the CLC, CLE, CBE?
Are these programs intended to prepare someone for lactation consulting,
home and hospital visits, etc? Is the intent that persons completing these
programs are practicing in a health care setting as an employee or in a
private/group practice setting? I've been confused by this for years!
Perhaps someone who has attended one of these programs or who has a copy of
the curriculum can quote the scope of practice. Also, to whom is a CLC, CBE,
CLE answerable? Are there any requirements for continuing ed or
recertification?
I am an RN and IBCLC, and have taught at a nursing school preparing LPNs. I
know that some of my students at graduation had better preparation in terms
of knowledge base than some at a nearby 2year RN school, but I also know
that different roles were assigned the two. Aare there different roles for
IBCLCs and CLEs, CBCs, and CBEs, or are we interchangeable? Can anyone share
the scope of practice intent of the non-IBCLC certificates? I think it would
clear up things for a lot of us!!!!
TIA,
Mary Alice
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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 17:01:37 EDT
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
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From: Theresa Chmiel <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Initials
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In a message dated 10/28/99 9:20:14 AM Central Daylight Time, [log in to unmask]
writes:
<< So for those that have the consultancy hours and the didactic hours, why
not
take the board exam? >>
Are you going to pay for it for me? My employer(s) wouldn't and I can't
afford it. Should I hang up my hat and stop helping moms and babies until I
have "acceptable" credentials? And acceptable by whose terms? My peers and
colleagues? I thought we were all in this together? I have the respect of
my peers who know me. I have plenty of referrals from doctors who respect my
knowledge.
<<How does anyone, especially the public, know what this person has
done to "earn" the CLC? Or CLE? Or C...whatever.>>
How does the public know what IBCLC means for that matter? Frankly, I don't
think the public CARES what the initials mean. To John Q. Public they simply
signify that the person has completed special training. I have never been
asked what I had to accomplish to earn those initials, although I would
willingly spell it out for any one.
Theresa Chmiel, CLC, ICCE
Las Vegas, NV, who is becoming increasingly convinced she doesn't want to
join the ranks of the breastfeeding elite... :-(
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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 17:20:57 -0400
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
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From: michelle scott <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: UniDial Internet Services
Subject: Drugs for Crohn's Disease
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Anyone have any information on Remicade for treatment of Crohns Ds?
Help. My client who has been nursing a preemie (dob 12/23/99) and has
been diagnosed with Crohns Ds when the baby was about 4 months old, has
had her condition gradually deteriorate. We discussed the use of
prednisone while nursing, which seemed to work, until about 3 weeks ago
when her pains became unmanageabl. Now she is going the a GI specialist
of specialists, and was told they will probably put her on Remicade
(Infliximab) during which time there is no nursing. She thinks that she
will be hospitalized for 24-48 hours and given a one time dose, but not
sure. If that is the case, my advice is to pump now to save up enough
milk for 2-3 days, and plan to pump every 2-3 hours in the hospital.
Anyone have any information. Baby is still only 13 1/2 pounds at 10
months old, has some large motor (trunk) developmental delays which were
just realized--more hardship on mom. Otherwise baby is healthy, happy,
and "loves nursing."
I have, in a very low key way, suggested to the mom that some of her
own milk may sooth her GI tract, but she doesn't seem to take it
seriously. What do you all think?
TIA. Michelle Scott, MA,RD,IBCLC
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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 22:29:25 +0200
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
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From: Jean Ridler <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Carbamazepine/fertility/LAM
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Wise ones and Dr Hale
A woman in her last trimester has asked me about using LAM for
contraception while taking Tegretol (carbamazepine). She was told by
her neurologist that this medication makes her 10 times more fertile.
Is this so? Would optimal breastfeeding behaviour still be able to
suppress ovulation? TIA.
Jean Ridler
Jean Ridler RN RM IBCLC
Cape Town, South Africa
mailto:[log in to unmask]
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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 23:36:27 +0200
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
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From: "A. Bon" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: New study on breastfeeding and work
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Onderwerp: New study on breastfeeding and work
>http://www.acs.ohio-state.edu/units/research/archive/brstfeed.htm
it says: “There is competition between breast-feeding and employment,” he said. “In our
study, the women who worked full-time represented the lowest percentage of breast-feeders,
while the women working one to nine hours per week breast-fed most frequently.”
in the Nethrlands this is different. I do not know exact data of parttime versus fulltime,
but in the Netherlands working mothers breastfeed more than SAH mothers. this is the result
of the socio-economic status of the working women: they are higher educated, hence tend to
breastfeed more.
still it counteracts the suggestion that comes from this study from Ohio, that working and
bf are kidn of contradicted
Annelies
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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 18:00:10 -0400
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
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From: "Nice, Frank (NINDS)" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Remicade (Infliximab)
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Since this drug is a macromolecular protein, and since it has to be given
parentally to be effective, I do not see how much drug could enter the infant's
plasma since any amount in breast milk should be broken down in the baby's GIT.
If Tom Hale in online, since he has experience with these types of drugs, maybe
he can confirm this.
Frank J. Nice, DPA, CPHP
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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 18:10:10 -0400
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
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From: ifab <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: LACTNET Digest - 28 Oct 1999 - Special issue (#1999-136)
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Okay I'm pulled into this discussion to share my views too. I went
through a period after I passed the IBCLC where I was very angry. Don't
get me wrong I was proud to have passed the exam but all of a sudden I
had more credibility. I was the same person with the same experience,
but NOW what I had to say had some weight. This angered and confused me.
As a La Leche League leader I was a "radical", a "militant", "a
breastfeeding nazi", "one of those", etc you get the picture. Now
overnight I became respected and looked to for information. Huh? I
don't get it. Initials don't change the person. Yes, it is nice to have
them for the respect they lend me but I wish I could've been respected as
well for what I knew as a "plain old" LLL Leader.
Warmly, Ilene Fabisch, Brockton, MA
"Each day is a blank canvas waiting for our unique brushstrokes to create
a masterpiece."
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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 17:23:38 -0500
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Barbara Wilson-Clay <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: IBCLC initials
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It is so hard to discuss the issue of certification without hurting people's
feelings. As a long time advocate for greater professional training and
requirements, I know that my stance has often been perceived as elitist and
there are people who have told me I've hurt their feelings by stating
publically that as a profession, we have to dare to take a stand on
standards. When dieticians began to emerge as professionals there must have
been a lot of angry institutional cooks who wanted to know what was wrong
with good old fashion square meal planning. The truth is there is nothing
wrong with it. It was just that nutrition science was expanding, and there
was more there to learn if one wanted to pursue it. When people expand
their expertise and begin to use it to achieve therapeutic ends, it soon
becomes clear that standardized education which culminates with examination
and evaluation is important. It also becomes clear that some sort of
on-going continuing ed. requirements are necessary to assure continued
competancy. Further it usually occurs to everyone sooner or later that
there must be a regulatory body which provides recourse and disciplinary
action in the event of adverse outcomes. These are CONSUMER issues.
Although enlightened self-interest suggests that uniform standards and
recognition of a credential prob. will ultimately benefit us in terms of
income and job security, my main interest in the credential has NEVER
focused as much on the feelings of those who support breastfeeding, as for
setting up a system which best ensures the protection of mothers and babies.
I've long been a passionate advocate of a multi-disciplinary entry pathway.
As a non-nurse, I've championed the idea that we could best protect the
counseling emphasis of our work by drawing some of our practicioners from
non-medical educations. Many of my respected colleagues argue that LCs
should only be certified from the ranks of health care professionals, and
lately it seems to me that that mind-set is gaining a compelling momentum.
The field may well evolve a direction which will exclude me. If it does, I
will just have to accept that or go get a nursing degree. No matter whether
I get my "own way" or not, I feel grateful that I've had the chance to be
part of starting a new profession as both a LLL Leader and then as an IBCLC.
It takes nothing away from my efforts on behalf of mothers and babies or
breastfeeding just because the wave may toss me high and dry. This
discussion isn't personal. It's professional. Tho it affects me
personally, some perspective on what's best for the majority must be
maintained.
Barbara Wilson-Clay, BSEd, IBCLC
Austin Lactation Associates, Austin, Texas
http://www.jump.net/~bwc/lactnews.html
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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 18:22:15 -0400
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Cathy Bargar <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: bf=pornogrpahy
Comments: To: heather <[log in to unmask]>
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Well, so far today I've read BF=a sexual matter and BF=pornography. Maybe we
should just all give up...
Cathy Bargar RN IBCLC Ithaca NY
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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 17:24:01 -0500
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: gima <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Drugs for Crohn's Disease
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I am not writing about the meds. but about what she can do to reduce her
symptoms. Many gastro MDs are now recommending an elimination of milk
products in the treatment of Crohn's symptoms.
I have a niece who had had one surgery and when she had a flare-up while
she was breastfeeding, her doc told her to try the dairy elimination. She
has stayed off of dairy produces quite faithfully for the past 5 years and
has been pain free.
> I have, in a very low key way, suggested to the mom that some of her
>own milk may sooth her GI tract, but she doesn't seem to take it
>seriously. What do you all think?
I believe that her breastmilk would help, in addition to eliminating cow
milk products. I think that there was something on Lactnet about using
breastmilk for such a condition. You could do a search. Maybe if you told
her about others' using it for her illness she might reconsider.
Pat Gima, IBCLC
Milwaukee, Wisconsin
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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 18:28:28 -0400
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Marie Biancuzzo <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Initials -- round 2
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Jan, your post says--
>
>I would love for educational programs to stop awarding certifications of
>program completion.
>
If I recall correctly, until recently your educational program awarded
certification, and I'm assuming that your strong feelings may have been the
impetus for BSE to discontinue this. Feel free to publicaly flog me if my
memory serves me incorrectly, or if I read too much into your post. But my
question is: Do you feel that *not* offering such recognition has been (or
will be) ultimately beneficial, either to the education program, or to the
public? Otherwise stated, is *no* recognition ultimately more beneficial
than *some* kind of recognition?
I think this is part of what everyone is struggling with.
--
Marie Biancuzzo
Perinatal Clinical Nurse Specialist
[log in to unmask]
Resources to simplify breastfeeding management are available at
http://www.wmc-worldwide.com
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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 17:42:59 -0500
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: gima <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Looking out for long lost pumps
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Kris wrote:
>It's a good idea for nurses who
>make home visits to ask a mom where she got a pump if they see one in the
>home.
I was in a home of a pediatrician a few weeks ago and asked if mom had
rented a good breast pump and she said that she had it from her first
child. I expected to see a PNS. But it was a Lactina.
Her older child is 5 years old. I asked her about it and she said that she
rented it and "they never asked for it back." I don't know who "they" are.
Her present baby has a cleft lip and palate, so she will probably be using
the pump for a long time.
If you came upon such a situation would you tell her that it is "stolen"?
(Only kidding!) or would you say, "Those cost about $900 and you might want
to take it back after you are finished with it."
Put yourself in my place. What would you have done?
Chicken-like, I ignored the whole thing.
Pat Gima, IBCLC
Milwaukee, Wisconsin
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Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 00:47:50 +0200
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Rachel e-mail <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: afraid of missing something
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I am going no mail for several days because I will be attending our =
annual gathering of Norwegian BF junkies, the national meeting of =
Ammehjelpen. Packed my toenail polish and everything! Think of us as =
we congregate in Stavanger in the rain, wind and early nightfall, =
singing funny BF songs-- we really do that-- and staying up too late.
So please nobody say anything important until I get back.
soon to be experiencing LACTNET withdrawal symptoms (is this like cold =
turkey weaning?)
Rachel Myr=20
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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 18:53:44 -0400
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Cathy Bargar <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Initials -- round 792 at least
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I guess this issue is one of EVERYBODY's "hot buttons"! Jan says (among many
other wise and well-reasoned things): "What I would like for everyone to
do -- since you asked, Cheryl, is to sit for the board exam as soon as they
are qualified to do so!"
Well, what *I* would like is for employers who want to be able to say they
are BF-friendly, or have "lactation consultants" on staff, or simply want to
provide the best care for their mothers/babies/families, is to:
1) pay!!! Pay to help a person already on staff get the preparation to take
the exam, or do whatever is possible to help her accumulate hours. Support
staff to go to conferences, to take the 5-day wonder classes, to do whatever
it takes. Once they're accredited, pay them on an appropriate scale.
2) make the IBCLC credential part of the job requirement, if they're serious
about providing the best care. This doesn't mean freezing out the CLCs & the
LLLLs & the other credentials; I think that Jan's suggestion about having a
title for a person preparing for the exam, with a reasonable timeline for
reaching that goal (and we *know* it can take a long time!), is excellent.
Perhaps we should work on that idea with IBLCE or whoever. I don't think
that "incipient IBCLC" period should be rushed, either - there's no
advantage in hurrying, because until you have a lot of contact hours and a
lot of didactic training, you won't have a really qualified candidate
anyway.)
Look at nursing, for example - not everyone who is interested in caring for
patients wants to become an RN, and there are other things she can do to use
her unique skills and interests without being in any way "less than" an RN.
BUT, when a hospital needs to hire an RN, that's what they hire, and that's
what they pay for, and if you're not an RN, however excellent you may be in
your skills, if you're not one (or haven't registered to at least take the
boards) you can't get the job.
Isn't that pretty much how it works in most professions? And especially
those professions that require board certification? I see living proof every
day in my own community that BF skills are obviously not valued - "yes,
BFing is a very nice thing, and yes, we want to be able to say to our
clients that we have 'lactation counselors' on staff, but no, we don't want
to *pay* them!" (subtext: it's a woman's line of work, and it's just about
women & babies, so how important can it be? And what do they need well-paid,
well-educated experts for anyway - isn't it just a natural function? And
besides, not that many women continue BFing after the first couple of weeks
anyway, so why bother putting money there, for such a small # of people?)
Feeling a little bitter, after our BF Coalition mtg today. Grrrr! Well, when
I'm Queen of the Universe, we can all go home and play with our other toys -
Jan's gonna have a bookstore (and maybe invest in the cabbage market?), I'm
gonna play with beads all day!)
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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 18:57:13 -0400
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Leslie White <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Teaching Children about BF
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The questions about teaching young school kids about breastfeeding put
me in mind of these really nice webpages for kids. The approach could
be adopted for classroom use. Lots of nice nursing mammal pictures!
http://www.waba.org.br/animais1.htm
Leslie White
Deep River Ontario
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Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 00:13:58 +0100
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: phyll buchanan <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: nipplette
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I'm jumping out of lurkdom to add that i've met the inventor of this device,
and to give some background - he is a plastic surgeon who developed the
nipplette as a means of drawing out nipples - not directly to help
breastfeeding. It was an alternative to surgical correction of inverted
nipples for cosmetic reasons. He thought that by drawing out the nipple
breastfeeding was automatic, which was his explanation for his trial - and
lack of control group.
the outside packaging no longer makes claims about breastfeeding, the
company said they had no control over whether the shops chose to stock them
beside the breastfeeding gadgets
it seems they are more popular with teenage girls who use them prior to
night clubbing, the erect nipples can be sprayed with laquer for longer
effect!
phyll buchanan
BfN Breastfeeding Supporter, near Reading UK
> He wasn't independent, though Patricia, was he??? I have a feeling he was
> the developer of the device. We need a good study that compares use with
> non use and measures bf outcomes and duration.
>
> Heather Welford Neil
> NCT bfc Newcastle upon Tyne UK
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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 18:21:58 -0500
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Jennifer Lane <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: LACTNET Digest - 28 Oct 1999 - Special issue (#1999-136)
In-Reply-To: Automatic digest processor <[log in to unmask]>'s
message of Thu, 28 Oct 1999 17:28:57 -0400
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Boy, oh boy what a mess! This initials thing seems to be getting awfully
ugly.
I must say I tend to agree with the closing remarks of Teresa. I hate
this elitist attitude. I think IBCLC would be an honor and those who
have attained it should be proud. I also think for those of us who are
choosing to promote and educate about breastfeeding while keeping the
focus on our families should also be proud. We all need to keep grounded
and remember where breastfeedng education and support started. At a
picnic over 40 years ago. that is where the 7 amazing women who founded
LLL decided to put together the first breastfeeding group. From there
came all of our titles. That's right folks, thank LLL for starting it
all. None of us would have a place in this field if someone hadn't
started it all! Just my .02. Obviously I am very proud to represent a
certain volunteer breastfeedig organization!
Jennifer Lane, in Germantown Hills,Illinois- mom to Madi almost 4 and
Jack almost 2 , who make my title of mom what I am most proud of.
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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 19:25:04 -0400
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: "Cindy Curtis, RN, IBCLC" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: nipplette
the erect nipples can be sprayed with laquer for longer
effect!
Now I have heard it all! !!!!
Cindy Curtis,RN,IBCLC
http://www.iGive.com/html/ssi.cfm?cid=5731&mid=68196
Turn Everyday Online Shopping Into Philanthropy
mailto:[log in to unmask]
http://www.erols.com/cindyrn
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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 19:49:17 EDT
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: mammogram while nursing
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well, "you" know and "i" know that women can have a mammogram while
breastfeeding, but try telling that to the clinics. they absolutely freak
out. oh my god, they say, you have to wean (i got this once when child no. 2
was 18 months old) and come back next week! the lack of knowledge about
breast health that i have seen and heard of in various clinics around town
(not just one, see that's the problem) is staggering.
which is by way of explaining why i have never had one yet. still lactating
after all these years.
carol brussel IBCLC
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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 19:50:50 EDT
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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Subject: licensure versus certification
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Dear Friends:
I wonder if some of our concerns about initials have to do with the
difference between licensure and certification. One is essential for
practice, the other is optional. Licensure is a one-shot deal, whereas there
are varying degrees of certification. Licensure is more permanent. As an
illustration, a RN never has to take the exam again (thank goodness!).
Depending on the one's state of residence, the RN has to show evidence of
hours of practice or CEUs. Certification in some cases seems like it is
eternal ( as with some childbirth education programs....just pay the yearly
fee and keep the initials); in other cases, it must be renewed. There aren't
always governing bodies to track down certificants. However one who is
licensed better toe the line (laws, standards of practice) , or risk losing
the license!
The goal of licensure is to protect public safety; certification's goal
is a recognition of further education.
This is how things are in the USA; I don't know about other countries.
Warmly, Nikki Lee
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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 20:05:03 EDT
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Denise:
ask radiology to scan the milk... if they are willing leave the milk with
them and have them "check" it and see how long before it is "clean"
Patricia
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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 17:13:48 -0700
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From: "Anne P. Mitchell, Esq." <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Update on Mammograms and Lactating
Thanks, everyone, for the info. It seems as if the consensus is
to empty the breast, then have the xray taken.
Does anyone know whether it's ok to nurse immediatly following the mammogram?
I would have thought yes, but I've seen enough contrary to wonder....
Thanks!
Anne
Jessica - 8/28/78
William - 4/11/98
I am: Mom, Attorney, Professor, Childbirth Educator (in training)
Founder & Director - Western N.Y. Mother's Milk Drive (1978-1979)
My own favourite baby-related tips:
http://www.dadsrights.org/annie/kidtips.html
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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 20:16:25 EDT
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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everything has a price. i spent almost $10,000 of my own money (my own credit
cards, to tell the truth) to be able to sit the exam. quite a gamble, some
might say. i haven't made near that much this year, either. but it was worth
it to me because it was what i wanted to do. and when i went to the ilca
conference, it dawned on me that almost everyone that was there was on their
employer's dime. there have been various costs to my family, one of which is
no family vacation for the last two years; i spent the money going to florida
without them.
so no complaining about not having the money.
and if you do not work in a job where you get enough experience to sit the
exam, your motivation to do this work should involve getting the job that
provides the experience, or the volunteer job. yes, even volunteer work.
apparently LLLL pass the exam more successfully or with higher scores than
other candidates. what does that tell you about the value of that volunteer
experience?
i have posted before about this, and i firmly feel that if there an
institution or person passes someone off as a "lactation consultant" and that
person is not a board certified LC, then there is an element of fraud
involved in having the non-certified person provide care (unless they are
clearly identified as a volunteer, such as LLLL, for example). just because
consumers do not yet know the difference does not mean it is okay to fool
them. i give all my patients a handout which tells about me and my practice
and the very first thing i mention is what IBCLC means.
when i spend an hour with a woman and she turns to me and says " what
qualifications do you have to have to do this, do you have to study or
something?" that doesn't mean that she doesn't value my profession, it just
means that she doesn't know. and that she is desperate enough to seek my help
without knowing whether i have qualifications or not.
and the problem of knowing that other IBCLCs give out crummy advice is one
that bothers me a great deal, but i haven't got a solution for it yet. we
just have to continue to upgrade the quality of what we provide, and increase
what we all know.
and no, being a nurse is not necessary. i can learn everything i need to
know. so can someone else. and the difference between being board certified
and non board certified is clear. there aren't any "almost doctors" that have
different initials but can practice medicine.
and whenever i heard the term "lactation nurse" i just want to scream. does
that mean wet nurse? will she come around and lactate for you? unfortunately
what it usually means is that the hospital won't hire a "real" LC and has a
nurse designated to do the job, whose training is unclear.
it doesn't mean that persons who are IBCLC are denigrating non-IBCLC. you are
just still in the process, so to speak. and barbara is entirely right when
she points out that this is not a personal issue. this is a professional
issue. if i want to be a doctor, but don't want to spend the time it takes to
go to medical school, am i allowed to moan about not getting to be a doctor?
i think not.
carol brussel IBCLC
still not a nurse in denver, CO, expecting winter to return - but for just a
minute or two
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Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 10:10:48 -1000
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Denise Fisher <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: how times change
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>it seems they are more popular with teenage girls who use them prior to
night clubbing, the erect nipples can be sprayed with laquer for longer
effect!
Oh my giddy aunt...
I vaguely recall putting bandaids over my nipples many years ago so that I
could wear a t-shirt and no bra and not have them popping up :-)
Denise
who still goes sans-bra whenever possible and thanks to slooow weaning can
do it pretty proudly too :-)
****************************************************
Denise Fisher, BN, RM, IBCLC
BreastEd Online Lactation Studies Course
http://www.breasted.com.au
mailto:[log in to unmask]
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Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 10:23:04 -1000
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Denise Fisher <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: HIV and breastfeeding
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Hi Regine
I'm afraid I can't really help you but do want to reassure you that your
messages are getting through. I, too, have put in requests that go
unanswered - because it is such a large list I think everyone thinks
someone else will answer it, and no one does!
Anyway I think this mother of yours is just fantastic for choosing this
option and hope that she (and you) get to educate quite a few people along
the way. If she is intending to do the full Holder technique perhaps the
best place to ask would be at any pathology lab - they may be able to
direct her to where she can buy or hire the equipment. Certainly if she
intends to do it for 12 months (isn't she fantastic!) then to get the
proper equipment would be worthwhile.
Ted Greiner is very interested in breastfeeding and HIV. His website is:
http://www.welcome.to/breastfeeding
He probably also has a personal email address at that site and may be very
interested in assisting you with advice and support.
Good luck and please keep the list informed of this mother and baby's
progress as it isn't something we have much contact with.
Denise
****************************************************
Denise Fisher, BN, RM, IBCLC
BreastEd Online Lactation Studies Course
http://www.breasted.com.au
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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 20:27:15 -0400
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Kathleen Bruce <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: turf battles
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I think that the formula folks who read this list must be laughing
themselves all the way to the bank.
As we dilute our energies, and argue over the turf ( my program is best,
mine gives so many Ceus, or this credential, or certification, or my
credential is an accurate measurement of skill, etc) we use our efforts to
stake out territory, instead of being able to accomplish something
worthwhile in this profession.
For every profession, there are always some who cannot afford an exam,
school, college, med school, etc. These are serious problems and
challenges. While that is true and acknowledged, I do not think that we
should lower the credential "bar,"...what would this accomplish?
I agree with Barbara Wilson Clay. The standard of IBCLC in place to benefit
the mothers and babies, the consumers.
Would we want another professional who had completed only part of their
professional training to serve us? An architect? Structural engineer? Dentist?
I see the turf battle as a sad dilution of all of our efforts. It is about
feeling important...unfortunately. This is my take on it.
I also see that over time, I now keenly realize what I do NOT know, as an
IBCLC. The IBCLC was a beginning point. While one can glean a lot of credits
from a fast course in lactation, and one can learn a lot of worthwhile
information, this cannot substitute for the hours and years of experience
and from the tincture of time and cannot possibly teach the skills of
judgement that one needs as an IBCLC. For me, LLL remains the backbone of
my skills. I started there, and have appreciated the skills that I have
been taught and have learned over the years in LLL. Ilene, I here what you
are saying about being an IBCLC. It does make one angry. All of a sudden,
your credibility goes up a notch, whether one thinks it matters or not.
Some people think that just because you have RN after your name, that this
increases credibility re: BF. This is a sad illusion.
For the record, I don't think that being a nurse has been of much benefit
to me as an IBCLC. The multidisciplinary approach is one that I
support...without any nursing prerequisite.
I think that we should stop arguing over which way is best, try to come to
an agreement on baseline professional requirements and prerequisites, and
then start working on helping mothers breastfeed and dealing with important
issues like reimbursement for services.
Just my two cents, and appreciating that while this discussion brings up a
lot of issues, that we are continuing to keep it polite and civil.
United we stand, and divided we surely fall...
Kind regards,
Kathleen
Kathleen B. Bruce, BSN, IBCLC co-owner Lactnet,TLC, Indep. Consultant
Williston, Vermont
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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 20:39:53 -0400
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: PrMechell Roberts Turner <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: pink ribbon story
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To the poster of the pin ribbon story. very nice in the awareness about
breast cancer. In the last couple of months have had my lump scare too.
turned out to be an infected lymphnode to to a brown reclue spider bite.
stil scary all the checks and the first - baseline mammogram was to be
dianostic. oh well.
To another subject that is dear to my heart is that October is also Domestic
Violence Awareness month as well. One woman is beaten every 15 seconds.
Each day 4 women die of battering husbands and boyfriends. 3of 5 women will
be sexually assaulted before their 18th birthday. Each day we probably know
,and work with, these women who are ashamed to tell anyone about the
violence. Just be sure to ask and do not judge. Asking of these things is in
my initial intake history, but I say if you don't feel like teling me now
that is ok, but I am here. Domestic violence is signified by wearing a
purple ribbon. I have known 2 women who have died at the hands of their
boyfriend/ husband.
So this month I have worn 2 ribbons -1 pink and one purple.
Mechell Turner, M.Ed., IBCLC
-----Original Message-----
From: Automatic digest processor <[log in to unmask]>
To: Recipients of LACTNET digests <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Thursday, October 28, 1999 7:24 PM
Subject: LACTNET Digest - 28 Oct 1999 - Special issue (#1999-137)
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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 21:05:37 EDT
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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Subject: Re: LACTNET Digest - 28 Oct 1999 - Special issue (#1999-136)
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I mostly lurk, as a former LLLL and IBCLC now in my third year of law school.
But I couldn't let this comment go unchallenged:
<< Are you going to pay for it for me? My employer(s) wouldn't and I can't
afford it. >>
"Affordability" is subjective. I can't "afford" to go to law school. I'm
divorced, with two teenagers, and I'll be $50,000 in debt when I graduate in
May. But getting a law degree is so important to me that I've rearranged my
life around making it happen.
I brashly assert that IBLCE certification is within the financial reach of
every single person on this listserv. It may take months (or years) of
planning, you may have to moonlight at a second job, you may have to eat
beans-and-rice 5 nights a week. But it's doable. You just have to want it
badly enough.
Susan Roberts
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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 21:09:04 EDT
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Initials -- is this round 3, 4 o 5?
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Marie Biancuzzo says,
<< If I recall correctly, until recently your educational program awarded
certification, and I'm assuming that your strong feelings may have been the
impetus for BSE to discontinue this. Feel free to publicaly flog me if my
memory serves me incorrectly, or if I read too much into your post.>>
Jan replies: Well, it depends on your definition of "recently." (That's my
Clintonesque statement for the night.). It is BSC, not BSE, BTW -- and we
stopped offering certification in 1993, as soon as ILCA came out with its
statement that they (ILCA) stood behind the IBCLC as the only recognized
certification for lactation consultants. (I'm not quoting it directly, but
that's the gist of it). And lest you think that I was angry when ILCA said
that, let me quickly reassure you that I was Past President at the time, on
the ILCA board, and was in full agreement with the decision. And when I told
the Executive Directors of BSC of ILCA's decision it was THEIR decision (not
mine) to work in concert with ILCA, and thus stopped offering the
certification. No, it was not MY strong feelings that determined we would
stop. Furthermore, the program that BSC had that offered certification was a
300+ hour distance education program -- it wasn't our 6 day program which
didn't begin until 1995.
<< But my
question is: Do you feel that *not* offering such recognition has been (or
will be) ultimately beneficial, either to the education program, or to the
public? Otherwise stated, is *no* recognition ultimately more beneficial
than *some* kind of recognition? >>
Oh I think that offering certification is definitely beneficial to the
educational program -- or the people that offer it. There's no question
about the fact that it's a terrific marketing tool. I'm not that stupid that
I don't see that. Because there are LC Wannabe's that don't understand the
difference between the IBCLC and a CXX, the educational program that promises
a CXX will be attended far more quickly than a program that does not offer
certification. (And BSC is not the only program that does not offer
certification. There are several others as well). I do not believe it is
beneficial for the LC Wannabe or for the public.
Unfortunately, many of those that receive a CXX then assume that that is ALL
they need, and do not go on, despite the fact that they have no more
expertise/education than anyone else that has attended an educational program
that does not offer certification. It would be nice to have all the
educational programs on the same level playing field, with the LC Wannabe
choosing the program on the basis of quality, price, location, instructors,
and content, rather than on the intials that come after the program. I'm
sure BSC could be far more competitive if they offered a CXX, but as I said,
years ago they decided to wholly support the IBCLC credential as THE
credential for practicing lactation consultants.
I think Barbara's post was quite eloquent on this entire issue. (Though I'm
not sure I agree that the field is going to go the direction of just medical
professionals. I too see much value in having people from all professions in
our "own" profession. I wold hate to lose someone with Barbara's, or Maureen
Minchin's, or Mary Rose Tully's, or Kathy Auerbach's stature -- to name just
a few. I said in a previous post that it would be nice if there were some
sort of "title" that folks could have that have completed a lactation
management course -- similar to "graduate nurse" -- while they are accruing
their experience hours to sit for the board exam. I recognize that people
WANT titles. They want to be called something. It seems to me that calling
someone "certified" who has completed an educational program is doing our
profession an injustice. While there are many educational paths to -- we'll
take nursing, for example -- you can go to a diploma school for 3 years, or
back in the dim dark past, for 2 years. You can go to a 4 year BSN program.
You can go to a 2 year AD program. But what tells everyone that you can
practice as a NURSE? The fact that you become licensed by sitting board
exams, and then registered with the state. If you are a BSN, but not an RN,
I don't want you taking care of me. You might be a wonderful, knowledgeable
person, you might have graduated from college (or you might have gotten your
BSN off a matchbox cover) but I don't know that you were able to go that
final mile to qualify and pass the boards -- and if you aren't licensed, and
you aren't registered, to whom are you accountable?
I certainly have no objection to some sort of recognition of education. I do
not believe that awarding "certification" to someone who has completed 5 or 6
or 20 or 40 days of an educational program is appropriate.
And to Theresa, while I understand the concern about the financial aspect of
taking the exam, in any profession that one wants to enter, there are
financial commitments that have to be made -- whether it is college
education, apprenticeship, board exams. It is part of becoming a
professional. When I became an RN, I had to pay for my own board exams. My
employer did not pay for them. When my daughter sat for her RN boards, she
paid for them -- neither her employer NOR her mother paid for them.
Let's say I was going to refer a client of mine who was moving across the
country, and I want her in the hands of a good lactation consultant because
she's had problems breastfeeding. I pick up the ILCA directory, and I look
through the names of the people who accept referrals in her new local. And I
see these assortment of intials: Mary Jones, IBCLC. Susan James, CLC, Jane
Doe, CLE, Judy Thompson, CLS, Linda Johnson, CBE. (These do not refer to any
real people living or dead). I don't know any of them. Of all these people,
however, the only one I immediately know ANYTHING about is Mary Jones. I
know that she has at least 30 hours of lactation education, and that she has
completed at least 2500 hours of breastfeeding consultancy, and that she has
passed the IBLCE exam. She may be excellent, she may be dreadful, she may be
mediocre -- but I already know a lot more about her than I do anyone else.
So to whom am I going to refer my client when all I have to go on is the
initials I see?
Time for me to go check and see how Ezzo is faring in the UK....
Jan Barger, RN, MA, IBCLC
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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 21:10:13 EDT
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
<[log in to unmask]>
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From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Missing pumps
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In a message dated 10/28/99 6:24:36 PM Central Daylight Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:
<< "Those cost about $900 and you might want
to take it back after you are finished with it."
Put yourself in my place. What would you have done? >>
I think I would say that, or say that the availability of these pumps is
sometimes very limited and that it would be a favor to other new mothers if
she made sure this one got back into circulation.
Elaine Ziska
Jackson, MS
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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 18:18:05 -0800
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Joan Edelstein <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Mammogram while nursing
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Carol et al,
What I find appalling about the issue of refusing to do a mammogram
while nursing is that there are other means of screening that are even
more sensitive, like ultrasound and MRI. Why take a chance of missing a
malignancy? It's like punishing a woman for having the nerve to refuse
to wean.
Just my two angry cents,
Joan
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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 21:15:02 -0400
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Kathleen Bruce <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: families
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Dear Jennifer,
Keeping family as a priority is a characteristic of most IBCLCs, I would
say. I myself have done this work so that I could stay home with my children
and have a flexible working schedule. Just for the record, one does not
preclude the other.
Kind regards,
Kathleen
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 18:21:58 -0500
From: Jennifer Lane <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: LACTNET Digest - 28 Oct 1999 - Special issue (#1999-136)
Boy, oh boy what a mess! This initials thing seems to be getting awfully
ugly.
I must say I tend to agree with the closing remarks of Teresa. I hate
this elitist attitude. I think IBCLC would be an honor and those who
have attained it should be proud. I also think for those of us who are
choosing to promote and educate about breastfeeding while keeping the
focus on our families should also be proud.
Kathleen B. Bruce, BSN, IBCLC co-owner Lactnet,TLC, Indep. Consultant
Williston, Vermont
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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 21:26:39 -0400
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Kathleen Bruce <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: further thoughts
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I have a few other thoughts. I think that these issues reach far beyond
breastfeeding. They are about women and their self worth, their worth in the
workplace, and their legitimacy. Women struggle with legitimacy
historically and presently. The challenge is to work together for a common
cause without being personal about it. This is a professional issue.
Kindly, Kathleen
Kathleen B. Bruce, BSN, IBCLC co-owner Lactnet,TLC, Indep. Consultant
Williston, Vermont
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Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 09:47:28 +0800
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Hans & Robyn Aulmann <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: LACTNET Digest - 28 Oct 1999 - Special issue (#1999-137)
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Re Crohn's disease
Hi Lantnetters,
I recently met a wise old Aboriginal lady who told me of the marvellous
things that over the years she had seen done with breast milk, but she could
not remember the age of each baby in each case.
She told of curing Eye infections in children of the family. Withs squirts
of breastmilk (in the infected eyes) three or four times a day. I think was
the frequency.
Her story of burns healing with in a few days with washes of breastmilk.
Tummy troubles too, she said, were treated with a 'cup' of breast'
I was rather fascinated wish her English language ability had been more!
The Tribal community and their amazing 'Bush Medicine'.
Thought these may be useful for someone.
Cheers,
Robyn Aulmann RM
Kalgoorlie Hospital,
Western Australia
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 17:24:01 -0500
From: gima <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Drugs for Crohn's Disease
I am not writing about the meds. but about what she can do to reduce her
symptoms. Many gastro MDs are now recommending an elimination of milk
products in the treatment of Crohn's symptoms.
I have a niece who had had one surgery and when she had a flare-up while
she was breastfeeding, her doc told her to try the dairy elimination. She
has stayed off of dairy produces quite faithfully for the past 5 years and
has been pain free.
> I have, in a very low key way, suggested to the mom that some of her
>own milk may sooth her GI tract, but she doesn't seem to take it
>seriously. What do you all think?
I believe that her breastmilk would help, in addition to eliminating cow
milk products. I think that there was something on Lactnet about using
breastmilk for such a condition. You could do a search. Maybe if you told
her about others' using it for her illness she might reconsider.
Pat Gima, IBCLC
Milwaukee, Wisconsin
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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 21:36:29 -0500
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Barbara Wilson-Clay <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: certification vs licensure
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Actually, certification is the vanguard position as far as consumer
protection is concerned. Licenses tend to be confered in perpetuity so long
as fees are paid and you don't kill anyone. Some US states require CEs for
licensed professionals, some do not. As a guarantor of continued competancy
(always a bit of a crap shoot and certainly an emerging science in its own
right) , certification (with the requirements certification boards generally
insist upon for CEs and re-examination) is clearly the winner in the studies
I've seen in terms of reliability in predicting that the certificant is
staying current with advances in the field. There are governmental and
consumer agencies who study these issues, and there is a body of published
work on licensure vs certification which is available for anyone's perusal.
As the result of analysis of this literature, many fields are moving in the
direction of requiring licensed people to become certified in their fields
as well.
The issue is not to disparage the work of non-licensed or non-certified
individuals. It is to try to come to consensus on how those of us who are
working (as in supporting families) on our salaries as LCs can best be
trained and over-seen to provide quality service to families who seek
professional (as opposed to peer) support. This does not denigrate peer
support. Most women who require professional support would greatly profit
from additional peer support.
No one is saying just because someone isn't an RN or an IBCLC they can't
help mothers.
BTW, I have never had any of my education, my conf. fees, travel, or any
of my exam fees covered by any institution. I never expected anyone but me
to pay my own way educationally. In the early days of the profession, my
husband thought it was a real long shot that I'd ever be able to be employed
at this, and was extremely negative about investing scarce family resources
in my LC education. Consequently I earned the money I needed myself,
babysitting and free-lance writing. It made me stronger.
Barbara Wilson-Clay, BSEd, IBCLC
Austin Lactation Associates, Austin, Texas
http://www.jump.net/~bwc/lactnews.html
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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 21:39:05 -0500
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: "Denny Rice, RN IBCLC, Dallas TX" <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: @Home Network Member
Subject: pedi/denver
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Can someone please recommend, privately, a pediatrician proactively
supportive of breastfeeding in the Denver?
Thanks
--
Denny Rice, RN, IBCLC
Dallas Texas USA
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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 22:40:13 -0400
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Nick Azzaretti/Kate Pennington <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: client's hubby thinks HM has environmental contaminants
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How about looking at the LLLI press release "Breastfeeding Remains
Best Choice in a Polluted World"
(http://www.lalecheleague.org/Release/ReleasePollution.html). Here's
an excerpt: "In reviewing investigations of contaminants in mother's
milk collected by the La Leche League International Center for
Breastfeeding Information, the research shows consistently that even
in a polluted world, breastfeeding offers advantages which outweigh
the risk of ingesting possible contaminants."
Kate Pennington, Newcastle, Maine
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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 22:48:42 EDT
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Anne Merewood <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: book publishers
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This is a request for information re the publishers Jones and Bartlett. I am
considering doing some work for them related to a breastfeeding book. I have
a background in writing before entering the breastfeeding world. I would be
very grateful if any of you out there could email me privately about your
experience working with these publishers.
Thanks very much
Anne Merewood IBCLC
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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 22:50:24 EDT
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: niplette
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Heather:
<<
He wasn't independent, though Patricia, was he??? I have a feeling he was
the developer of the device. We need a good study that compares use with
non use and measures bf outcomes and duration. >>
The acknowldgement on the paper is: the maxillo-facial laboratory at Queen
Mary's University Hospital Roshampton, In particular, Paul Grew for their
assistance in the manufacture of the "niplettes" used in this study.
Patricia
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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 22:53:24 EDT
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Speaking as a totally uncredentialled person (long)
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I am probably the least credentialled person on this list. I am not IBCLC,
not CLC, not LLL, (not even MD or DO or a PhD like Kathy Dettwyler :>) and
probably never going to be any of those things. Frankly, I consider myself
part of this group on sufferance. I got on here because I had become a de
facto lay bf resource for a lot of people in my part of the world, and then
started writing and editing work about bf, and before you know it I started
to get the shakes every time I tried to go nomail -- you all know how that
is...
So in some ways I represent the consumer in all this - even if maybe a more
than usually educated consumer. And my take is that we are talking about
two different kinds of status here -- not mutually necessary, and not
mutually exclusive either.
First of all, I reverence knowledge, and I reverence it wherever I find it.
Anybody here ready to put down Ina May Gaskin because she is not a CNM, or
Kay Hoover because (I am told -- true?) she is not IBCLC? I think not --
wisdom is wisdom. If you have established yourself as being truly wise and
an important resource for people who care about your wisdom, then you are
deserving of intrinsic reverence for that, and anyone who doesn't come across
with that reverence is a narrow-minded dope. Teresa, it sounds like you
have this kind of wisdom-status. Even if your wisdom recognition is on a
local level it is real (I read your posts, so I know it is real!), and when
you say "IBCLCs aks me questions" I think you are basically saying that your
wisdom is the source of the respect that is due you.
But that would be true without CLC after your name, too. Wisdom is wisdom.
The credential or lack of it doesn't come into that -- not for ill, and not
for good.
Contrariwise, a really substantial credential can be an intrinsic source of
respect. For example, even though I know some physicians who are -- in ways
I care about -- plain stupid, I still revere the process of training that
produces and credentials physicians, because it represents something real:
an overall increase in public health, which by implication includes my health
and my family's health. So I don't generally, for instance, resent the
system that requires doctors orders for anything to happen in a hospital,
because, **over all**, that "elitist" and credential-oriented system still
serves me and everybody else.
Credentials don't confer wisdom, any more than wisdom confers credentials.
But each is differently intrinsically valuable. These are parallel systems,
with different advantages, and I am glad they both exist.
Of course it's great when those two different, parallel systems for respect
overlap. When Ilene passed her exam she now had not only one basis for
respect (wisdom) but two (credentials), so that the net amount of respect she
got -- and the number of people who could figure out that they ought to give
it to her -- increased.
Contrariwise when they don't overlap it's a headache, as any LLLL who has
ever tried to contradict bad bf advice from a doc knows well. I have a
chiropractor who has brought me back repeatedly from misery to health -- but
it still ticks me off that she tells her patients to call her "Dr."
So I guess I want to ask Teresa, With all the wisdom you have, why do you
want to stake your claim to respect on the frail reed of that CBC? One
reply might be, "Because 'CBC' persuades the jerks in the business office to
pay my salary so that I can help mothers and babies." Fair enough, as far as
it goes. But here you aren't at the hospital -- you are with family, so to
speak. WE value YOU for your WISDOM. You don't NEED ANY initials with us.
But contrariwise your manifest wisdom doesn't mean that the initials that you
do have after your name are the ones we do happen to value as a CREDENTIAL.
I personally don't especially value as professional breastfeeding credentials
any of the letters that people put after their name, other than IBCLC .
That doesn't mean they are valueless. On the contrary -- the other hcp
letters from MD and RN out to RD etc etc all have obvious value, and LLLL has
great value to tell me where the holder "comes from" and how she is likely to
position herself with respect to bf moms and even what resources she has
available. But to me, none of those are in themselves conclusively deserving
of respect specifically as professional bf credentials.
To put it another way, the letters CBC are not enough to account for the very
real respect felt for you by everyone on this who knows you or your posts or
your work. If those (hypothetical) jerks in the business office value you
for your credentials, that why indeed don't they want the full credential --
don't they want an IBCLC? And if they value you really for your wisdom, why
do they need that CBC credential at all?
Teresa -- and I know that there are a lot of wonderful bf supporters, some of
you professionals, for whom Teresa is speaking here -- to this point in your
life you have made decisions -- which I presume to be smart decisions -- not
to do whatever things it would take for you to aquire the particular letters
we do value specifically as a professional bf credential. I don't think you
necessarily need to acquire them, because you have status intrinsically with
out them -- but it is different status from the status you would have if you
had achieved that particular credential (cf Ilene). Maybe someday you will
decide to do that, maybe not; I imagine it depends on a lot of things in your
life.
I think a lot of people are focusing on the question of whether there is a
place in the lactation community for a different, possible less-intensive,
credential for lactation professionals. But whether you think yes or no, I
bet everyone would agree that there is always a place for bf wisdom,
credentialled or not. The question of credentialling may well in the long
run be a huge pain in your professional neck (cf Barbara Wilson-Clay's post)
because hospitals and health-care are very credential-driven environments;
but that doesn't mean it is an attack on you as a source of wisdom. It's a
different conversation; I think that may be part of what BWC meant when she
wrote that it isn't personal, it's professional. Wisdom is about wisdom;
but credentials are about credentials.
Elisheva Urbas
Unaccredited bigmouth in NYC
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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 22:54:34 EDT
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: Anne Merewood <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: bilateral cleft lip and palate
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Just a happy story to relate: we had a term NICU baby today with bilateral
cleft lip and palate, no other apparent problems. After the baby was
thoroughly checked out by the docs the question arose of how we were going to
feed this baby and since he was rooting wildly and crying hungrily we put him
to breast (Hispanic mother, 2 other children, never breastfed before). The
baby latched on like a dream, took both breasts, and to all intents and
purposes had a great feed.
I know lots of text books say this is what is supposed to happen. But in our
NICU this was a great triumph!
ANne Merewood IBCLC
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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 23:05:49 -0400
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: "Terri Shackelford, RN, IBCLC" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Breastimplants/candida/deep breastpain
I have been working with a couplet for several months. Mom and baby
have been passing yeast back and forth all this time. She has been on
Diflucan for over a month, baby being treated also. Nipples look 1000%
better, baby appears to be free of thrush but mother continues to
complain of severe burning breast pain, especially at night and during
letdown. The pain is so severe that she is now taking Darvocet at night
to get some relief and sleep. Her OB is terrific and has been very
supportive and frequently consults me. He now wonders if perhaps the
implants have something to do with her persistant pain and asked me
what I thought. So, I'm asking all of you for help. Mom is working with a
Yeast "expert" who has helped her with her diet to fight the chronic
yeast. We're using drugs. Mom is very compliant and washing
everything to prevent recontamination with yeast. So, has anyone had
the experience of deep burning breast pain being due to implants?? or
are we still fighting the yeastie beasties? Thanks. Terri Shackelford,
RN, IBCLC
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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 23:22:38 -0400
Reply-To: Lactation Information and Discussion
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From: "Jeanette F. Panchula" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: credentials
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I was an LLLL of 11 years (and had a Social Work degree) when I sat for t=
he
1985 IBLCE. After being an IBCLC, I found that when I moved from an area=
I
was well known to a new city, no one would take me seriously - so I went
back to school part time to get an RN (I was over 40 and my eldest
graduated from High School the same year). Yes, I "sold out" according t=
o
some - but it has opened so many doors - so many opportunities - that I a=
m
not sorry. In fact, I was able to support our family when my husband los=
t
his job. =
Now I am in another time in my life (50's) and I have anther job that
requires a different set of credentials (Public Health Nurse) so I am bac=
k
in school - taking Statistics and 3 other courses that I must complete by=
the end of next year in order to keep my job. At the same time I can wor=
k,
see moms, train others on breastfeeding, etc. NO, I don't need a PHN
Certificate to do the job I do - but I do need it to get paid by the powe=
rs
that be. That's life. AND I have had to pay for all of these myself.
Others have called me crazy, I should be thinking retirement instead of
stressing myself out going to school - but I guess I'm lucky - I had a
mother who studied Russian in her 40s and German in her 60's. I have the=
example of some of the La Leche League Founding Mothers - who went back t=
o
school, became lawyers, business women, etc as part of their own
"Sequencing". =
My point? Some want to grow one way, some another. We should not expect=
everyone to follow the same set of footsteps. We should not criticize th=
e
path each has chosen to follow. =
BUT "if you want to play my game you need to play by my rules" is a barri=
er
that we will all meet - and some decide to jump it, others to go under i=
t,
others to just walk along it. =
Jeanette Panchula, BSW, RN, IBCLC
Vacaville, CA
mailto:[log in to unmask]
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