Dar Heinze asks for help. Those members who replied raised some good issues. Here is how I would analyze her problem. Symptoms: 1. strange symptoms (not commonly seen) 2. number of bees have been decreasing 3. bees spending a lot of time removing dead bees from within the hive 4. the bees aren't completely dead, they still wiggle for an hour or so 5. 40 bees rolled with ethyl acetate revealed 3 Varroa (4 mites/50 bees = 24 for 300 bees in an ether roll sample?) 6. it was difficult to get more than 40 bees for the test because the bees were spread out on the combs 7. HBTM analysis was unsuccessful (mites probably present at some level) 8. one hive had few bees, not much brood, and a bad brood pattern 9. dead pupae, or maybe larvae in white puddles in the cells, turning grayish The list suspects: a. AFB, an immature bee disease b. EFB c. colony collapse from Varroa d. 4-6 Varroa per ether roll is OK at this time of the year because treatment will begin soon e. 4 mites in an ether roll and almost always dead larvae is seen in the brood f. something toxic is taking a little time to kill the adults, who get it to the hive, into the stomach of the nurse bees, and then to the larvae g. this could be a contact poison coming in with the pollen or something in the nectar h. a pesticide on flowering plants i. brood affected by heat, not enough adult bees to keep the hive temperature regulated j. look at bee behavior at the hive entrance k. bees bringing poison back into the hive I would ask Dar the following questions assuming that tracheal and varroa mites are present in all her colonies: Are your hives in a residential or agricultural area? Here in Washington State bee colonies aren't even moderately damaged or killed by garden sprays in residential areas. Such damage may occur in areas bordering on agricultural areas if there are crops or weeds that are attractive to bees which may also be sprayed for pests. How many total colonies do you have? Were they overwintered in '98-'99? How many problems colonies are you talking about? What is their history? How long has their population been decreasing? How many dead bees are lying about at the hive entrance? Were these problem colonies overwintered colonies? If so did you requeen the colonies with marked queens? What was the queen source or strain? The answers would tell me if an old queen may have swarmed and maybe was not successfully replaced by the colony. If she requeened, then I would suspect a poor queen that may have failed with an unsuccessful replacement effort by the colony. Were these colonies splits or nucs made this spring, or packaged bees installed this spring? If so the queen(s) may have failed over several weeks or months with an unsuccessful attempt by the colony to requeen itself. If they were splits, nucs, or packages, when were they purchased? This would tell me something about the expected size of the colony at this time of year, thus about the extent of the damage Dar is seeing. How long has the marked queen been absent from the colony(s)? How long have you noticed the dead and dying brood? How long since you last worked the colony? The answers to the above questions would enable us to give a much more accurate list of potential answers to Dar's problem. But since we don't have the answers, I will postulate the following from my many years of observations and discussions with beekeepers here in Washington State, USA. I will list them from most likely to least likely. 1. If the problem colonies are over wintered colonies without having been requeened, then I suspect swarming, poor queen quality, Varroa, and tracheal mites in that order. 2. If they are nucs then I strongly suspect poor queen quality, Varroa, and tracheal mites. 3. If Dar lives in a residential area I don't suspect pesticide damage. 4. If Dar lives close (1-2 miles) to an agricultural area then I might (!) also suspect a pesticide loss if all colonies are somewhat affected. 4. The dead and dying brood (like EFB) suggests the colony has been under-strength for a long time (2-3 months). This was caused by a poor queen and nurse bees not properly feeding larvae. 5. The dead and dying bees can result from lack of food and a deteriorating colony organization. A spotty brood pattern is the result. It is often seen with a failing queen as older brood hatches. I don't suspect AFB because the dying brood is the wrong color. I don't suspect EFB because the colony is deteriorating. EFB symptoms are usually seen in the spring not in the summer or fall. It is rare (I think) to have a colony die from EFB. Four to six Varroa in an ether roll (300 bees - maybe several thousand in the whole colony) from a colony of the strength I expect at this time of year (20 deep Langstroth combs of bees) will result in heavy bee loss in the colony even if treatment is begun immediately. Some adult bee damage may be visible. The high Varroa count is the result of a shrinking colony population which causes the mite per bee count to go up. Dar's difficulty in getting more than 40 bees because the bees were spread out on the comb suggests a) a weak colony, b) runny bees,and c) a poor queen producing low levels of pheromones resulting in a deteriorating colony organization. I have seen the EFB-like dead and dying larvae in colonies since 1969, long before the arrival of mites in Washington (1983-87). These EFB-like/"PMS") symptoms were associated with queens without retinues, bees not observed feeding or tending larvae, noisy colonies ("queenless roar"), runny bees, colonies that didn't cluster properly at 50-60 F., colonies with obvious lack of organization and cohesiveness, and colonies that absconded in late fall at first frost. I have also seen it in colonies with less than 13 percent tracheal mites and Varroa levels between 50 and 1,200 per colony after two days of treatment with Apistan and sticky boards, in late August. Dar's solution options if her problem colonies are less than 20 combs of bees now: 1. Do not combine the problem colonies with each other. The mite levels and queen problems will defeat all efforts to get the colonies through the winter. Combining with strong colonies will only complicate the strong colony organization and spread mites. 2. Fill a five gallon pail half full with warm water. Add 1/4 cup of dish detergent and stir. Shake all bees from problem colonies into the soapy water. Bury the bees or strain them out of the water into a garbage bag and put them with household waste. 3. Remove honey supers from strong colonies (16 to 20 combs of bees) and begin Coumaphos or Apistan treatment (yesterday), using sticky boards with screens to monitor Varroa levels. I wish Dar, and other beekeepers with similar problems, much success in analyzing and resolving their problems. Feel free to e-mail me, or the list, if you have further questions or observations, or care to respond to all the questions I've asked above. Some day I should publish a diagnostic list that beekeepers could use in the apiary. Some day. James C. Bach [log in to unmask]