Hi All Thanks for the posts regarding this thread (especially to your Murray). As Murray pointed out, fluvalinate has been proven to have little known side effects, and carries with it a full set of product instructions. My point is: To make those procuct instructions, a lot of research was carried out. Many expensive personal carried tests out, injected the stuff into rats and all the other things that are done. Great lengths were taken to make sure that the product was only launched in countries after big disasters had hit, (advertising by example) and people make lots of money this way. So, when I lumped the chemical in with cocain. LSD, heroine, DDT and all those other nasties, all I had hoped to do was to show that it will oneday join these as another bad chemical. All the mentioned nasties act on the nervous system. All were once legal. All have been shown to be bad in some way, but not without doing some damage before they were banned, and more thereafter. Products which work, are not profitable. One wants to sell something that almost works. The model T ford worked very well. So well that people never needed another one as it never broke. So Ford decided to build in built in obscelescence. Cars broke after people had finished paying for them, so ford did not kill it's market. Likewise fluvalinate has built in obsolescence (sp?) it does not work very well, it will be banned probably just before it's patent wears out and a new treatment will be released, which has been developed using cash from the previous patent. And it will be banned just before that patent runs out? Anybody from an agrochemical company out there able to tell us how much their MD earns? How in the sixties certain very famous companies used to empty their experimental chemical vats into the St Lawrence river to save costs (from a previous employee who left in disgust when a friend had to go to hsopital for organaophosphate poisoning from swimming in the river) I think it is a dirty world, and all I wanted to show, was that, just like drug barons who sell a product that keeps it's customers to the death, in some ways certain pesticides are similar. (A rat lives four years, a human eighty - that means that we don't even know what the long term effect of 90% of this centuaries pesticide is as those people have not reached their life expectancy, and thier kids whose original gamets had the holes blown in them have fifty years to go before they find out whether the testing of fluvalinate was right - the MD will be dead by then so who cares?) Sorry, am a cynic - of to eat my breakfast/pesticides. Keep well Garth PS - I am not a green peacer. I believe that exposing myself to certain poisons is good (boosts enzyme levels to deal with them), and so on. Just don't like big businesses that play evil games to maximise profit. (We all would if we could though) --- Garth Cambray Kamdini Apiaries 15 Park Road Apis melifera capensis Grahamstown 800mm annual precipitation 6139 Eastern Cape South Africa Phone 27-0461-311663 On holiday for a few months Rhodes University Which means: working with bees 15 hours a day! Interests: Fliis and bees Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed in this post in no way reflect those of Rhodes University.