In a message dated 97-09-07 08:25:43 EDT, [log in to unmask] (Joel Govostes) writes: << In one of his recent beekeeping books, Ron Brown (of Devon) recommends overwintering in one brood box plus a full honey super, with *excluder* between. This way no brood ever ends up in the food super, maintaining clean combs, and the bees have a good portion of honey situated directly above them where it is most useful. Now, it is more commonly stated that excluders should *not* be left in position during winter, as the queen could become isolated below, and then the colony would lose her as the cluster moved upward. Have any BEE-L'ers out there overwintered in such fashion, intentionally or by accident? Ever actually had queens deserted below an excluder in this way? Just never have heard any actual accounts of this happening. It would seem that any cluster worth overwintering would likely extend from the food super down through the excluder and into the brood chamber, so the queen would not be "left behind." Any comments appreciated>> Joel, I used to do this quite a bit in South Carolina. We made a hard and fast rule however (due to sad experience) never to have more than one shallow above the excluder. If the cluster is decent sized, only about half of it will go through the excluder at the very most. If two or more shallows are left above an excluder the cluster usually moves on through. Sometimes the queen will also get through, as she is shrunken from not laying too many eggs. But usually she is left below and dies. In the spring you have only a few demoralized bees, or a robbed out colony. We don't winter on honey anymore, as we are treating with Apistan, and I have no way to store full supers. So we extract and feed, wintering, for the most part in a single deep with dry sugar feed. In your area it would be riskier. You sure wouldn't want to run them in a deep, with a deep or two shallows above. I don't see any reason why you couldn't winter bees in a double (as is normal in the north) with an excluder and a shallow super of honey. They would be very unlikely to get enough of the cluster through to lose the queen. But why? As long as pollen reserves are sufficient, bees will winter better on syrup or sugar. And they are less valuable than honey, so that pays the labor, plus. [log in to unmask] Dave Green Hemingway, SC USA