<Quotes from various people> > My point in this short story made long is that the origin of the > bees doesn't seem to relate to survivability in my experience. > My suspicion is that it is most closely related to the breed, but I > don't have enough knowledge on this topic to have any more > than a gut feeling. Well, I think that the strain does have an effect. I tend to believe that some bees (carniolans?) are reputed to have longer individual lifespans, and that this may be true. I think also that -- generally speaking -- there are some bees known to be terrible winterers and avoiding them is more important than finding the perfect strain that winters best. For example: AHB is not likely a candidate for wintering in Alaska. Some NZ strains are known to winter horribly in Canada. (Having said that, I am putting some NZ stock into winter and I worry about that). However, there are several other factors which are likely more important. > Actually, especially on the west coast, a lot of the breeders > were selected from Canadian stock in past years. I don't know if that is > still going on, but the genetic remnants are probably still with us. That was during package days, and wintering was not a factor in selection because bees were gassed in canada before winter. In the California/Canada trade, bees were generally selected for production first and colour second, and maybe a few other things if anyone got around to it. As far as Canadian strains are concerned: the Hastings bees were developed and maintained for many years in Northern Saskatchewan and wintered very well. Sadly that has likely changed character due to dilution since moving south, but they may bear some examination. > Personally, for my own use (here in southeastern USA), I've > generally had better luck with my own queens than with boughten ones. > I'm sure I am not any more skilled in the process, just that I chose bees > adapted to my locale and management style, whenever I choose the > bees that do best in my operation. I was sitting around in my kitchen with my wife and a well known (and outspoken) world travelling college instructor / successful commercial beekeeper the other night. This very subject came up. (He shall remain nameless due to the random abuse that descends on the name of anyone who even appears to question the current bee gospel and the wisdom of some beekeepers/bee breeders) In a nutshell, he said that any competent beekeeper is likely to do a better job of raising queens than many (most at times) commercial outfits. This is due to *humility*, attention, and caring. He also indicated that he believes that much of the talk about special strains and hybrids is more marketing than science. (Not only commercial breeders, but also* researchers* need to market their output or go out of business). That is not to say that these people are deliberately dishonest, but that hope and need tends to blur objectivity and develop faith that is stronger than objective observation. And that is *not* to say that there are not differences between strains, or that selection of breeding stock is not important, but that any beekeeper can do a good job and get pretty good or even superior results. I know I was astounded at the improvement in our bees the first time we started raising our own queens. Having said that, I return to the subject: wintering. In addition to having a strain of bees that are selected for not having terrible wintering characteristics, several other equally important factors must be considered: Nutrition, population demographics, and health. Bees need immense amounts of balanced protein and they usually make do with what is in the locale. This means that they may be chronically undernourished. This condition is not immediately apparent, unless one has a clear idea of what well nourished bees look like; they are bigger, stronger, and smarter. It is not enough to just have good forage or feed supplements for a week or two now and then, but to build and maintain a powerful hive, good nutrition must bee available for several generations and preferrably continuously during the year. Any lapse in good feed will weaken the colony and make it more subject to disease and environment. Where summers are short, hives may lack adequate protein for months before actual wintering starts and months after winter appears to end. Some pollens such as dandelion, although bountiful, simply are a bandage due to inadequate nutitive value. You can see that in most places that ideal conditions are impossible to achieve. This is especially true in the north. Many generations of bees are reared during a subsistence period where forage is not available, and the bees must rely on stored food or feed provided by the beekeeper. Moreover, the bees have a problem disposing of the fecal matter that accumulates from eating -- especially if a lot of poor quality food is required to meet the minimum needs. There was somewhere on the web, for some time, an article about hives petering out on strong flows in Aus due to lack of protein. I think Nick had put it up. The lesson implicit in that study applies in spades to bees wintering -- whether indoors or out. Anyhow, good food is critical during the preparation period as well as the wintering period. Since some bees do a better job of preparation of the brood chamber than others, they may winter better. Splits may do a better job due to younger queens, and the fact that they keep their feed closer to the brood area. They may also have younger and less diseased populations due to the recent rapid buildup -- if they have had access to good pollen. Production hives that have peaked may have cut their brood rearing to the point where bees the majority of bees are old. This results in rapid feed consumption in the early wintering, and then population decline. There is no direct correlation between population size going into wintering and populations coming out. There is some relationship -- just not a direct one. The consideration is whether the cluster is large enough -- and composed of young, well nourshed, healty bees -- to survive comfortably. If so, the cluster at end of wintering should be large. The last consideration is disease. Well fed colonies with young queens that have been checked for mites and had the mite populations maintained at low levels, and which have been treated with TM and fumigillan should bee prime for wintering. If they also come from bee stock not known for terrible wintering, that is a bonus. Regards Allen W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0 Internet:[log in to unmask] & [log in to unmask] Honey. Bees, & Art <http://www.internode.net/~allend/>