I don't know whether I really want to step into this discussion, but here is my two bits: > One thing I have been thinking about ever since was could bees be managed > organically...? > 1) Is organic beekeeping possible ? Maybe, but not in many locations. In some places like Montana, we have large spaces where beekeepers run bees next to rangeland. In those locations, one could avoid spray ---- but we found residues of DDD, DDT, and other pesticides in every bee (not honey) sample that we ever took. Granted the levels were very low, but it does point out that pesticide residues occur globally. Are there sufficient techniques to deal with mites and diseases ? Are these techniques cost effective ? Again, some of our isolated locations remain mite free, but they are a long way from any other beekeeper and a long way from any town of any size (hundred miles or more). If mites are present, cultural practices would be time consuming and may not be effective. For example, caging the queen to induce brood breaks to curb varroa mite infestations. But all may be lost is infested feral or managed colonies occur within flight range. This assumes that "truly" organic does not allow use of menthol or grease patties or essential oils. > Can colony nutritional needs be met using organic products (would > organic syrup be necessary for fall feedings) ? Why would organic syrup be any different than any other syrup (I don't know of anyone putting additives into syrup for nutritional purposes). > 2) Would certification be shooting the rest of the industry in the foot ? > As consumers may be largely unaware that any pesticides or antibiotics > are used in the production of honey, would an organic product severely > taint the consumer's perception of the purity of honey. This is a very interesting point. Our 20+ years of pollution research points out that honey remains remarkedly "clean", despite our mucking around. We sometimes see traces of organic pesticides, some "natural" plant derivatives, but mostly the levels are hard to detect and of no human health significance. Bottom line, honey is as pure or better than most food products. Biggest source of honey contamination is sloppy handling. Can't say the same for pollen or the bees themselves. However, pollen usually is ok, but don't collect it from a sprayed field or under the smokestacks of heavy industry. Thus, honey already is about as good as it gets. "Organic honey" implies that it needs to be improved - not necessarily true and almost impossible to achieve. > 3) Can other organic agricultural sectors that require pollination > services (like tree fruits) really use hives that are being managed > conventionally for pollination ? Isn't that cheating ? Are you going to fence out the non-honey bee pollinators? Does that mean that the fruit picker can't have picked fruit in an orchard that isn't being managed organically? Seems like this thread can be carried to extreme. > 4) Would organic beekeeping really command superior prices for hive > products ? No data, but it may depend on the country in which your reside. It seems to me that more U.S. beekeepers should ask higher prices for different types of honey, as happens in Europe. Emphasizing the marketing of a white, clover-like honey as "the premier honey" is a bigger problem in terms of U.S. honey sales. I refuse to judge honey in the U.S. To me, any honey judging system that ignores taste seems to have gone off-track. (That statement ought to get some curses from the list, but I really think we made a big mistake years ago). 5) Is the application of pesticides to a bee colony as much an > environmental concern as broadcasting a pesticide in a field crop ? I > think the answer to this question is no, not as much. If the environment > is not such an issue (unless the manufactor of the pesticides is > environmentally harmful), and the direct health risks to the consumer are > not issue, then is organic certification in beekeeping unneccesary ? Good point, as long as you are sure that there is no risk to the consumer. But applying even approved chemicals during honey flows could change that - I don't want to consume fluvalinate in my honey. Remember, any chemical put in a hive has a chance (even though it may be small) of ending up in wax or honey. > 6) Will an organic beekeeping sector be useful in developing alternative > pest and disease control strategies and tactics for the rest of the > industry ? I've seen how the organic sector in other agricultural communities > has had a big impact as innovating new non-synthetic chemical solutions > to crop management (they generally have their hands tied with what they can > and cannot use, and I think have to necessarily be inventive to stay alive). > This may be a valid point. Some "experts" suggest we should just let our colonies die from mites, re-queen from the survivors. Most beekeepers, especially those making a living from bees don't have the income to keep going until the "resistant" stocks appear. Cultural approaches to control disease add to costs and may or may not work. Any chemical, other than honey or wax, seems to me to be a foreign substance in a hive and as such contrary to the idea of "organic". I am concerned that "organic" honey will lead to mite infestations, foul brood, and other nasty outcomes. If the "organic" beekeeper wants to take the risk, that is ok ----- provided he or she does not jeopardize nearby beekeepers (which in many places would occur). > I'm hoping to generate some discussion on this topic, as I am not sure > which side of the fence i'm on on this issue. > I tend to agree with Adony. I am skeptical whether or not anyone could ever certify honey as "truly" organic. You just can't control where they go, and with widespread pesticide applications, and global contamination, they will come into contact with it. If you use the term to mean "reduce or little contact", maybe. Cheers Jerry Bromenshenk [log in to unmask] http://grizzly.umt.edu/biology/bees > Cheers, > Adony >