Darwin pointed out the immediate adaptation of many species to changes in their environment. For example, animals moved to colder climates grow longer hair than they normally would. That observation alone puts the lie to the argument. True to a small point, they may grow longer hair as allowed by genetics, but an elephant transplanted to Norway does not become a mammoth, it dies. I pondered the "adapted term" a bit. I still disagree strongly with the concept are bees are adapting to any climate issues. Certain genetic traits make one specicies better suited than another. And thus those genes are carried on. Your argument is that then they are adapted. I can see that to a point. But they did not truly adapt in any time frame we could define. Whats happened is natural selection has eliminated those without the traits. One comment by Kevin is about the brood rearing. It's a very interesting observation. But it seems to me were still talking about genetic traits. Such as Russian and Italian differences. If you take Italian bees north, they don't do well in winter because of large clusters and needing huge stores. (yes it can be argued but just in general) within a few generations many will die off and those who's traits best matched that need will have successfully bred. But they did not adapt. No bee or genome in the bee decided to make a smaller cluster. The queen didn't look out the window and see her shadow and decide its time to brood up. What happened was the queens who genetically were prone to those traits survived. Early brood buildup is great, it's a trait we breed for. But that's it, we breed for it. You won't see a queen change her habits, that would be adapting. You can make the observation that over time they "adapted" to me it's a stretch of the word. What's happening now is a lot of people are using the term way out of context. I go back to my original question? What are locally adapted bees? How do you define or show it?? Way too many are using this term like it means something in a sales brochure. Obviously as you point out, over time the gentics become different. Such as we see now. But that's not happening in our lifetimes. I fully understand the term survivor stock, and how some are defining it. but that's in the context of TF.... how and why do we let the term Locally adapted into our vocabulary when we cannot define it or show it?? Charles *********************************************** The BEE-L mailing list is powered by L-Soft's renowned LISTSERV(R) list management software. For more information, go to: http://www.lsoft.com/LISTSERV-powered.html