Is slash and burn so bad? Generally it is small scale and after moving on nature has the opportunity to reclaim the land. Seems more sustainable than huge family farms that often have vast monocultures and high inputs of fuel, fertiliser and pesticides. Peter/ Randy, this is where we totally digress on sustainability. Its an opinion. Period. You guys claim that high inputs are unsustainable. Same argument mad for decades. Heard the same stuff in the 70's and its wrong. It can be sustained as long as the markets hold out. Inputs are based on outputs. As long as people need and want the products the inputs will remain. This is not a problem, nor does it mean its unsustainable. No soil is ruined in the process, absolutely nothing happens that is not reversible. Probably the only real issue at hand can be erosion. Much of that hastened by the rivers navigation systems, but that only effects some small areas. Your comments on the water usage being unsustainable. Strictly an opinion. Levels are too low to provide everyone what they want, but that's hardly unsustainable, that's market demand at work. It will balance. And when the farming is going or changed, the water table will fill back up again like we were never there. Your out there, so you much more in tune with the water than most. They report here that it's a fight between cities and AG... but in the end that's what it is. The farming is to feed the cities, so until some sort of ugenics takes place we will continue to raise the bar. That same bar that has moved up worldwide for 400 years now at least. There may be a point when humans collapse because of unsustainability, but we are not even close yet. Sure there are some places that have exceeded carrying capacity, and like fools we prop them up (Ethiopia for example) but the US farmers are not there. Not even close. The levels of input are based on desired outputs. Raise the price, demand goes up, and so does the inputs to attain more output. Price drops and decisions are made to live with less output. This year is a perfect example, corn is back in the high3-4 range again. All of human life and cost are based on energy. I had a very brilliant man explain that to me. I can't do it justice, but everything you do, eat or buy is based on energy cost. EVERYTHING. From the trip to grandmas, to that fishing trips economic cost. Cars are based on how much energy it cost to mine the materials, run the equipment, and the human energy inputs. Food is based on the cost to build equipment, fuel to plant and harvest (human or diesel) the cost to transport said food. Etc. When the economic factors fail, then those values and needs drop accordingly. In argueing the details, you missed the big picture, on which for the most part I think we agree. And that is certain groups who are not involved and for the most part totally clueless, trying to effect something based on emotion. The second point is that we, as beekeepers are in ownership of even less than you argue about. You comment yourself, that you don't own the land that bees forage on. EXACTLY my point. And the moment you become the crusader trying to tell those landowners what the have to do, your ability to use that land is in jepordy. You have built a relationship with what I will call the stewards of that land, as have I. My point was simple it is not our place as trespassers, to try to regulate how they manage it. We need to work more togther, and understand more and demand a lot less. Its great if we can point out problems to them, and work out an agreement. But as a group on whole it seems to me beeks are trying to get the government to make a bunch of rules that favor us...... Our "huge expanses" of monocultures are tiny issues in the scheme of things. Yup lots of corn and beans and beans and corn... and huge wheat fields, and orchards. And also cities and huge tracts of alfalfa and clovers...... same as in nature. Huge tracts of forest in Canada are pretty desolate to bees.. and south Texas?? Hows that forage for bees?? I think when you look at it you will find just as many bees here in the Midwest in those "huge monocultures" as you will in the Arizona scrubs and Canadian pine forest.... Its time we as a group quit thinking we know it all and recognize the farming system for what it is, cool and fantastic system that feeds the world, so that people can sit on their buts in NYC and prognosticate how terrible the people who feed them are doing........ If we had the attitudes of DU, or whitetails unlimited or Quail forever we could do much more than what we are doing now.... I had been tainted by bee groups as a bunch of snarky knowitalls with one goal in mind. Trash farming.....Ready Beesource or ABJ can still cause me moments of that, but I do see the tide changing a bit...... Hope it continues, but the "task force" mentioned to start this conversation will be a huge step backwards again. *********************************************** The BEE-L mailing list is powered by L-Soft's renowned LISTSERV(R) list management software. For more information, go to: http://www.lsoft.com/LISTSERV-powered.html