Judy writes: <I often wish that hospital staff who don't find the literature conclusive could actually have time with these babies who are struggling, and their moms whose lower limbs are edematous, sometimes up through the knees and even the trunk and hands. Combine the baby's issue and the mom's and it is a recipe for frustration, underfeeding necessitating supplementation, and exhaustion leading to breastfeeding abandonment. Since supposedly breastfeeding is important as an individual, family and public health issue, wouldn't the burden of proof be that unless they conclusively have NO negative effects, it's worth talking about? But really Pamela, I hear you. Can you take photos or videos of healthy term babies who cannot find a breast and self-attach normally, photos of mom's limbs, to share? Could you ask what effects they could consider as truly indicative of a problem? How they might be documented in a way that would be meaningful? Maybe getting input on what they consider normal post-birth behavior and skills in a newborn would help find common ground for discussion. ( I find that subtle skills not being in place can so easily be dismissed. We need others to be able to understand that those subtle skills are critical.) Changing what we've come to accept and expect as a norm, is a hard road.> I couldn't agree more Judy. Maybe the epidural per se is not the sole cause of the frequent problems we see in moms but the matter of total IV loads needs to be researched in relation to its effect on the postpartum breast during the entire period of initiation of breastfeeding. This is especially so when the OB prescribes hours of IV Pitocin (it has antidiuretic properties) either for induction, augmentation and/or for hours of third stage management. I am not against Pitocin per se. It can be a veritable lifesaver. 10 units of Pitocin was always given after birth of the placenta even 6+ decades ago when I first worked in L& D. But total levels of fluid adminstration + long-term administration and total dosages of pitocin, and relation to the time of delivery of the placenta begs to be scientifically investigated and correlated with changes in bloodwork and in the lactating breast , IME. I have just been exchanging ideas with an Ohio hospital LC about such questions. There are enough LC's observing the problems that ensue following <2000-2500 cc. of fluid intake in a 24 hour period, that I hope they start keeping notes for themselves. Some sort of formal research on the osmotic pressure effects on a large enough sample of postpartum mothers eventually needs to be done if for nothing else than to scientifically disprove any connection. I wonder if any research-oriented folks on Lactnet could clarify for me just what professions are permitted to do blood work (with ethical approval) in research. I believe if 14 daily tests following up the mothers' albumin levels (to stand in for colloid osmotic pressures) were done, that this would definitely show some correlation or at least marked differences in mothers who birth with no IV's, compared with the type of management I have listed above. I may have misunderstood, but someone doing research for a master's degree in nursing recently gave me the impression that besides requiring ethical approval, this would also remove it from the classification of nursing research, and make it into medical research. Does nutrition research and pharmaceutical research fall under this limit also?? K. Jean Cotterman RNC-E, IBCLC WIC Volunteer LC Dayton OH *********************************************** Archives: http://community.lsoft.com/archives/LACTNET.html To reach list owners: [log in to unmask] Mail all list management commands to: [log in to unmask] COMMANDS: 1. To temporarily stop your subscription write in the body of an email: set lactnet nomail 2. To start it again: set lactnet mail 3. To unsubscribe: unsubscribe lactnet 4. To get a comprehensive list of rules and directions: get lactnet welcome